Author Topic: Addressing climate change  (Read 7594 times)

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Offline Granny

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Re: Addressing climate change
« Reply #150 on: July 29, 2019, 08:30:22 am »
Canada’s amazing—and invisible—green energy sector:

Clean energy attracts billions in investment every year, employs many thousands of Canadians, and grows more than the rest of the economy.

https://www.macleans.ca/opinion/canadas-amazing-and-invisible-green-energy-sector/?utm_medium=organic&utm_source=Facebook#Echobox=1563918184

This week, a barn burner of a report was released into an increasingly flammable world by Clean Energy Canada, a non-profit think tank based out of Vancouver’s Simon Fraser University. The report revealed that Canada’s clean energy sector is growing faster than the rest of the country’s economy. It turns out that the clean energy sector—arguably the unsexy sector that we don’t even notice—grew a full third, percentage-wise, more than the wider economy between 2010 and 2017.

Excellent news!
We're making progress.
This confirms my thoughts that ... if there's money to be made, business people will naturally turn their attention to clean energy.
Now clean energy is in the boom times!

Offline Squidward von Squidderson

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Re: Addressing climate change
« Reply #151 on: July 29, 2019, 10:05:42 am »
It's quite a bit more than that. The indigenous relationship to the land and environment is inherent to their identity and culture. It's one of respect and reverence. Capitalist economies around the world have a relationship with the environment predicated entirely on exploitation: exploitation of the land, exploitation of resources, exploitation of people. When they talk about indigenous sovereignty, they're referencing a way of conceptualizing humanity's relationship to the natural environment that is symbiotic, deeply reverent, and intrinsic to our health, well-being, and survival.

That’s a very romantic notion, but total bullshit.   Indigenous peoples exploit resources here as much as anyone else when they have the means to do so. 

Offline ?Impact

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Re: Addressing climate change
« Reply #152 on: July 29, 2019, 12:56:55 pm »
So basically poor isolated less populated rural communities don't disrupt the environment as much as wealthier populated urban communities.

A swing and a miss.

Offline waldo

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Re: Addressing climate change
« Reply #153 on: July 29, 2019, 04:09:05 pm »
UN Report Says Indigenous Sovereignty Could Save the Planet

https://truthout.org/articles/un-report-says-indigenous-sovereignty-could-save-the-planet/

While humans have “significantly altered” about three quarters of land-based environments and two-thirds marine environments, these trends have been less severe or avoided altogether in areas held or managed by Indigenous peoples and “local communities.”

This means that Earth’s resources are protected in areas preserved for and by Indigenous people and managed by communities that enjoy some autonomy from global economic forces and tend to use resources sustainably. However, these areas often face the most pressure from deforestation, fossil fuel production and mineral mining, putting both the stewards of pristine lands and waters and their knowledge for managing them at risk, according to the report.

It's quite a bit more than that. The indigenous relationship to the land and environment is inherent to their identity and culture. It's one of respect and reverence. Capitalist economies around the world have a relationship with the environment predicated entirely on exploitation: exploitation of the land, exploitation of resources, exploitation of people. When they talk about indigenous sovereignty, they're referencing a way of conceptualizing humanity's relationship to the natural environment that is symbiotic, deeply reverent, and intrinsic to our health, well-being, and survival.

so, uhhh... how will this group show its, as you say, "respect and reverence"? How will the group express your stated relationship with the environment - one not predicated {entirely} on, as you say, "exploitation"?

... and the latest development introduces a possibility of an Indigenous-led group purchasing a majority stake in the TMX pipeline
 
notwithstanding Indigenous groups partnering won't necessarily stop other groups challenging TMX, and accepting to the most positive outcome for the peoples of participating Indigenous groups, would (most) Canadians accept majority control of TMX being in the hands of Indigenous groups?
It is said the majority of the 134 First Nations represented by the IRC are interested in buying TMX; it's chief executive, Stephen Buffalo, emphasizes:
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We all want a safe and proper environment; the environment is so key. But we can continue to still do some economic development and have that balance. And that's what we need to strive for — to find that balance.

would Canadians, overall, accept First Nations finding that balance between the environment and resource development? In any case, I await responses from some of the key Provincial Premiers - as much as Alberta Premier Jason Kenney has been all over touting a partnership with First Nations groups, what will he say about ownership control... and then there's weakSauce Scheer (waiting to be told what to say by his handlers!).

on edit to add:

seems the eager-beavers couldn't wait: Indigenous-led group submits unsolicited bid to buy Trans Mountain pipeline

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Indigenous-led group Project Reconciliation has submitted a preliminary proposal to the federal government to buy the Trans Mountain pipeline.

A federal government official confirmed to CBC News that the proposal has been received, but the government is not yet accepting formal bids.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2019, 04:12:17 pm by waldo »

Offline Queefer Sutherland

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Re: Addressing climate change
« Reply #154 on: July 29, 2019, 08:39:36 pm »
It's quite a bit more than that. The indigenous relationship to the land and environment is inherent to their identity and culture. It's one of respect and reverence. Capitalist economies around the world have a relationship with the environment predicated entirely on exploitation: exploitation of the land, exploitation of resources, exploitation of people. When they talk about indigenous sovereignty, they're referencing a way of conceptualizing humanity's relationship to the natural environment that is symbiotic, deeply reverent, and intrinsic to our health, well-being, and survival.

Indigenous people, if we can even generalize a ton of different groups across the world, are also terribly poor, and often have subsistence economies. Subsistence, pre-industrial economies have usually always been sustainable.  Indigenous economies like all subsistence economies around the world are often very poor, with horrible outcomes in health, education, violence etc., just as they were pre-Columbus.

These groups are in no position to tell anybody how to run an economy, they have no idea how to run a modern industrial economy sustainably.  I'd like society to live a lot more sustainably but I don't want to live like aboriginals either, though I'm sure we can learn some things from them. The competitive nature of the international economy has always been a race to the bottom by its very nature, regardless of capitalism and even centuries before industrialization.  Economic development means using natural resources like land, trees etc.  Maintaining a city of people means plowing over huge masses of land to house and feed people.  There's no easy answers here.  Romanticizing the "noble savages" as our saviours, as the article did, will fix little.
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Offline Omni

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Re: Addressing climate change
« Reply #155 on: July 29, 2019, 08:46:54 pm »
Maybe addressing actual science would move the conversation along. AGW is real no matter what neighborhood you live in.
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Offline Queefer Sutherland

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Re: Addressing climate change
« Reply #156 on: July 29, 2019, 08:49:01 pm »
Maybe addressing actual science would move the conversation along. AGW is real no matter what neighborhood you live in.

Yes i'd like to see evidence about indigenous stewardship of the environment.
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Offline Omni

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Re: Addressing climate change
« Reply #157 on: July 29, 2019, 09:18:44 pm »
Yes i'd like to see evidence about indigenous stewardship of the environment.

Well let's see, was it the Natives who shot all the buffalo, damned all the rivers, and laid down the tracks for Mr. Peabody's coal train? This thread shouldn't be about pointing fingers, but about addressing science.

Offline Queefer Sutherland

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Re: Addressing climate change
« Reply #158 on: July 29, 2019, 09:57:35 pm »
Well let's see, was it the Natives who shot all the buffalo, damned all the rivers, and laid down the tracks for Mr. Peabody's coal train? This thread shouldn't be about pointing fingers, but about addressing science.

This thread is about addressing climate change.  Did the natives build the economies (including dams and coal trains) that invented the technologies that produced the medicine that saved or improved billions of lives?  This may be harsh but it's easy for a group to be holier than thou on the environment when their economic & technological activity amounts to very little.

How about all of the "indigenous" Africans and east/south asians who flood their rivers with **** and **** and mountains of garbage?

My point is North American aboriginals aren't a model for sustainability because their economics aren't compatible or desirable for most of us.  We need to invent a new model of sustainability that is compatible with modern industrialization and economic growth, unless we want to live in the stone age again.
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Offline Omni

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Re: Addressing climate change
« Reply #159 on: July 29, 2019, 10:03:44 pm »
This thread is about addressing climate change.  Did the natives build the economies (including dams and coal trains) that invented the technologies that produced the medicine that saved or improved billions of lives?  This may be harsh but it's easy for a group to be holier than thou on the environment when their economic & technological activity amounts to very little.

How about all of the "indigenous" Africans and east/south asians who flood their rivers with **** and **** and mountains of garbage?

My point is North American aboriginals aren't a model for sustainability because their economics aren't compatible or desirable for most of us.  We need to invent a new model of sustainability that is compatible with modern industrialization and economic growth, unless we want to live in the stone age again.

You're still simply trying to pint fingers. Get over it.
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Offline Queefer Sutherland

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Re: Addressing climate change
« Reply #160 on: July 29, 2019, 11:39:17 pm »
You're still simply trying to pint fingers. Get over it.

Climate change is all your fault.  I kid, i kid.
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Offline Granny

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Re: Addressing climate change
« Reply #161 on: July 29, 2019, 11:48:53 pm »
Indigenous people, if we can even generalize a ton of different groups across the world, are also terribly poor, and often have subsistence economies. Subsistence, pre-industrial economies have usually always been sustainable.  Indigenous economies like all subsistence economies around the world are often very poor, with horrible outcomes in health, education, violence etc., just as they were pre-Columbus.

These groups are in no position to tell anybody how to run an economy, they have no idea how to run a modern industrial economy sustainably.
Wow. Generalized and stereotyped.
The IRC [Indian Resource Council] represents 134 First Nations that have oil and gas resources on their land.
Not all First Nations communities fit your stereotype. The Indian Resource Council has existed since 1987. These are in western provinces with experience in oil and gas.
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I'd like society to live a lot more sustainably but I don't want to live like aboriginals either,
Wow. That's pretty ... !!!
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though I'm sure we can learn some things from them.
Ya, you could learn some manners.

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The competitive nature of the international economy has always been a race to the bottom by its very nature, regardless of capitalism and even centuries before industrialization.  Economic development means using natural resources like land, trees etc.
That isn't a sustainable economy. We need to stop that.
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  Maintaining a city of people means plowing over huge masses of land to house and feed people.  There's no easy answers here.  Romanticizing the "noble savages" as our saviours, as the article did, will fix little.
We could listen. We have a lot to learn from their thousands of years of oral knowledge.

I find this all pretty bigoted.
There are lots of successful Indigenous business people, PG. Your knowledge is minimal, and very stereotyped.


Offline Granny

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Re: Addressing climate change
« Reply #162 on: July 30, 2019, 12:06:44 am »
This thread is about addressing climate change.  Did the natives build the economies (including dams and coal trains) that invented the technologies that produced the medicine that saved or improved billions of lives?  This may be harsh but it's easy for a group to be holier than thou on the environment when their economic & technological activity amounts to very little.
What we've built isn't sustainable. We need a better model for our economy.
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How about all of the "indigenous" Africans and east/south asians who flood their rivers with **** and **** and mountains of garbage?
How about our trillions of litres of toxic waste 'ponds'?
Again, the racism. Are you aware of that?
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My point is North American aboriginals aren't a model for sustainability because their economics aren't compatible or desirable for most of us.  We need to invent a new model of sustainability that is compatible with modern industrialization and economic growth, unless we want to live in the stone age again.
We need a different economy. If it isn't sustainable, it ain't worth ****.
It's a false, obsolete economy.
We need to get more intelligent.than destroying the earth and the systems that sustain us.
Chewing off our own arms.
Pretty dumb.
Indigenous people have been trying to tell us that for a long time.
They know we're doomed on our current path.
Do you not know that?

Offline Omni

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Re: Addressing climate change
« Reply #163 on: July 30, 2019, 12:35:33 am »
Climate change is all your fault.  I kid, i kid.

You could be right. My job required me to lay down a pretty big carbon footprint.
I'm trying to make up for it these days. I walk a lot and heat my house with hydro.
« Last Edit: July 30, 2019, 12:38:57 am by Omni »

Offline waldo

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Re: Addressing climate change
« Reply #164 on: July 30, 2019, 12:39:36 am »
We need to get more intelligent.than destroying the earth and the systems that sustain us.
.
Indigenous people have been trying to tell us that for a long time. They know we're doomed on our current path. Do you not know that?

per their purchase proposal, if the Indigenous led Project Reconciliation group were to gain majority ownership of TMX, how do you envision they'll help stave off your expressed 'current path doom'? What alternate path do you picture they would follow?
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