Author Topic: Addressing climate change  (Read 7594 times)

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Offline Omni

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Re: Addressing climate change
« Reply #135 on: June 20, 2019, 01:39:14 pm »
We need to move forward and implement cleaner technologies. More Recycling. More Conservation.

What we don't need is governments who think we can tax our way out of the problem.

Carbon Pricing needs to be pretty steep to stop people from actually travelling to a work place. And what if Carbon Pricing was so high that people stopped travelling to parts of the world that rely on tourism?

The Federal Carbon Pricing plan does very little to curb emissions. People just absorb the costs and continue with life as normal.

Actually the stats show that the BC carbon tax (first in Canada) that has been in place a decade has reduced emissions between 5-15% depending on the area of the province, and been revenue neutral. People still go to work but many are taking public transit where it's available, and where it's not they drive more efficiently such as making one trip work to get things done when they used to make three. 
Also, EV's are flying off the shelves here as fast as the manufacturers can keep up.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2019, 01:47:15 pm by Omni »

Offline TimG

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Re: Addressing climate change
« Reply #136 on: June 20, 2019, 01:48:46 pm »
Actually the stats show that the BC carbon tax (first in Canada) that has been in place a decade has reduced emissions between 5-15% depending on the area of the province, and been revenue neutral.
There is no compelling evidence of a causal relationship given the fact that the 2008 down turn hit at the same time. Emissions have been rising in recent years and it is no longer revenue neutral.

Offline Omni

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Re: Addressing climate change
« Reply #137 on: June 20, 2019, 02:27:56 pm »
There is no compelling evidence of a causal relationship given the fact that the 2008 down turn hit at the same time. Emissions have been rising in recent years and it is no longer revenue neutral.

 Province wide emissions have increased somewhat in BC simply due to population increase. Individual GHG emissions continue to decline. 

Offline Boges

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Re: Addressing climate change
« Reply #138 on: June 21, 2019, 11:38:55 am »
If EVs were:
1) widely available
2) more affordable

You'd see way more emission reductions than a punitive carbon tax.

Now how to achieve that? Who knows? Hybrids are way more common now as they've been on the market for more than a decade. My current car is a second-hand hybrid. I'm hopeful that when I'm on the market for another car, I can get a Second-Hand EV for under $20,000.

We can all concede there are no bigger ripoffs than that of a brand new car. You buy a second-hand car off a lease and you get way better value.

The irony, at least here in Ontario, with the price of oil being so volatile, the price of gas can drop to completely negate the effects of the Carbon tax. Which is what we've seen in the past few weeks, and we'll see again next winter when people don't drive nearly as much.


Offline segnosaur

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Re: Addressing climate change
« Reply #139 on: July 12, 2019, 10:31:12 am »
We need to move forward and implement cleaner technologies. More Recycling. More Conservation.

What we don't need is governments who think we can tax our way out of the problem.
Keep in mind that some recycling programs are not economically feasible without additional government investment (which, of course, involves using tax money to do so).
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Carbon Pricing needs to be pretty steep to stop people from actually travelling to a work place.
A carbon tax wouldn't necessarily need to stop all work-place commuting to be effective. Encouraging people to (for example) buy smaller cars (so good-old-boy bubba decides to buy a Honda Civic instead of a Canyonero), or perhaps telecommute one day a week. Or maybe get them to go for a bike ride on the weekend instead of a drive in the country.
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And what if Carbon Pricing was so high that people stopped travelling to parts of the world that rely on tourism?
And what if, as a result of climate change, those tourist areas lose their business because they either get flooded out, or the weather is no longer appropriate?

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The Federal Carbon Pricing plan does very little to curb emissions.
It is true that the effectiveness of Carbon Pricing is inconclusive. And its quite likely that it, by itself, will not be enough to deal  with climate change.

But even if its only partially effective, we are better to use it (especially along with a range of other solutions, such as more investment in nuclear) than not.

Offline segnosaur

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Re: Addressing climate change
« Reply #140 on: July 12, 2019, 10:38:59 am »
If EVs were:
1) widely available
2) more affordable

You'd see way more emission reductions than a punitive carbon tax.

Now how to achieve that? Who knows?
Your right... who knows? The government doesn't have many options to manipulate the car market, and making electric vehicles cheaper would probably require government subsidies. (And many people would argue that its not the government's job to subsidize auto manufacturers (even if its with the goal of reducing carbon emissions.)

So, a carbon tax may be imperfect, but it is about the only option.

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The irony, at least here in Ontario, with the price of oil being so volatile, the price of gas can drop to completely negate the effects of the Carbon tax. Which is what we've seen in the past few weeks, and we'll see again next winter when people don't drive nearly as much.
Yes, the regular changes in gas prices may overwhelm whatever carbon tax exists.

But, I think people are hoping that with a 5 cent carbon tax, people will notice that "Gee gas prices never fall below $1/litre anymore" (or whatever price point) and plan their next car purchase appropriately.

Offline segnosaur

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Re: Addressing climate change
« Reply #141 on: July 12, 2019, 11:05:48 am »
The trouble with the economic models that make most economists think that carbon pricing is wonderful is the models don't care if people suffer by going without because it costs too much or if they actually found an alternative that lets them do the same thing without emissions. All the models care about is demand CO2 emission producing activities goes down. Politicians, OTOH, have to care if a policy results in suffering even if it reduces emissions.
I guess the question is: who do you think would be suffering, and why?

Many jurisdictions that have implemented carbon taxes have attempted to keep them revenue neutral, either through a reduction of other taxes (such as income tax or corporate tax) or rebates. So for a certain segment of the population, they will see their overall taxes stay constant (or even go down). Lower income people will probably be better off, since they tend not to use personal vehicles or live in large single-family homes (and any increases in the costs of food or other purchased goods caused by the carbon taxes would be more than offset by rebates or other tax reductions).

I personally will probably find carbon taxes neutral... I do have a vehicle, but its a fairly small one, I live in the city and have a short commute to work, and my home is a town home (easier to heat).

The people who will end up paying more are those who, well, use more carbon... those people who commute further, drive bigger vehicles, crank up their furnace in the winter, etc. But then, while they may end up paying more, they were initially causing more harm to the environment in the first place.
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Offline Omni

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Re: Addressing climate change
« Reply #142 on: July 12, 2019, 12:15:06 pm »
In the wake of yesterdays incident involving clear air turbulance on an Air Canada flight  that injured 37 passengers, I just listened to an interview with a professor of atmospheric science  who suggests that CAT is on the increase in part due to global warming. Of course there are a lot of emissions pouring out of the back ends of airliner engines at 35000 ft. and that that heating can cause basically spin offs from such air currents as the jet stream, which are not only invisible to the pilots eyes but also to the airborne radar so theres no way to steer around them until you are bouncing around in them. His prognosis is that such encounters with CAT could double or even triple over the next decade. The good news is that a technology is being developed called "LIDAR" as opposed to RADAR which uses LIght instead of radio waves to look ahead and which can detect the CAT. So far though it is too heavy and too expensive to be installed on planes anytime soon. My advice, keep your seatbelt fastened while seated.   

Offline wilber

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Re: Addressing climate change
« Reply #143 on: July 12, 2019, 01:55:47 pm »
Thunderstorms a plenty around the equator, lines of great big ones that go up over 40,000 ft. That flight is always dodging them on radar during the black of an equatorial night. Looks like they ran into something that didn't show. Happens now and again.
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Offline Omni

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Re: Addressing climate change
« Reply #144 on: July 12, 2019, 02:20:34 pm »
Yes except this one had nought to do with t-storms. As has been reported this was that nasty old Clear Air Turbulence you can't see as you can a T-storm.

Offline wilber

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Re: Addressing climate change
« Reply #145 on: July 12, 2019, 02:53:52 pm »
Yes except this one had nought to do with t-storms. As has been reported this was that nasty old Clear Air Turbulence you can't see as you can a T-storm.

CAT is normally associate with mechanical turbulence over mountains or wind sheer but you can get it around storms as well.  We were cruising along down there one night, don't remember the altitude but between 310 and 350 for sure and while there were storms around, there was nothing close on the radar and it was smooth. All of a sudden we started going up like an elevator, the autopilot couldn't hold the altitude and tripped off. We must have gained about 1500 ft in a few seconds and then it stopped. We descended back to our assigned altitude and continued on like it never happened.
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Offline Granny

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Re: Addressing climate change
« Reply #146 on: July 24, 2019, 09:40:03 am »
Canada’s amazing—and invisible—green energy sector:

Clean energy attracts billions in investment every year, employs many thousands of Canadians, and grows more than the rest of the economy.

https://www.macleans.ca/opinion/canadas-amazing-and-invisible-green-energy-sector/?utm_medium=organic&utm_source=Facebook#Echobox=1563918184

This week, a barn burner of a report was released into an increasingly flammable world by Clean Energy Canada, a non-profit think tank based out of Vancouver’s Simon Fraser University. The report revealed that Canada’s clean energy sector is growing faster than the rest of the country’s economy. It turns out that the clean energy sector—arguably the unsexy sector that we don’t even notice—grew a full third, percentage-wise, more than the wider economy between 2010 and 2017.

Excellent news!
We're making progress.
This confirms my thoughts that ... if there's money yo be made, business people will naturally turn their attention to clean energy.
Now clean energy is in the boom times!



Offline Granny

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Re: Addressing climate change
« Reply #147 on: July 28, 2019, 06:06:01 pm »
UN Report Says Indigenous Sovereignty Could Save the Planet

https://truthout.org/articles/un-report-says-indigenous-sovereignty-could-save-the-planet/

While humans have “significantly altered” about three quarters of land-based environments and two-thirds marine environments, these trends have been less severe or avoided altogether in areas held or managed by Indigenous peoples and “local communities.”

This means that Earth’s resources are protected in areas preserved for and by Indigenous people and managed by communities that enjoy some autonomy from global economic forces and tend to use resources sustainably. However, these areas often face the most pressure from deforestation, fossil fuel production and mineral mining, putting both the stewards of pristine lands and waters and their knowledge for managing them at risk, according to the report.

Offline Queefer Sutherland

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Re: Addressing climate change
« Reply #148 on: July 28, 2019, 08:17:59 pm »
UN Report Says Indigenous Sovereignty Could Save the Planet

So basically poor isolated less populated rural communities don't disrupt the environment as much as wealthier populated urban communities.

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Global “Development” Drives Extinction.  The U.N. assessment covers the past five decades, in which the human population has doubled and global economic development and trade have exploded, along with the demand for food, fuel, timber and other resources.
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Offline cybercoma

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Re: Addressing climate change
« Reply #149 on: July 29, 2019, 08:07:12 am »
It's quite a bit more than that. The indigenous relationship to the land and environment is inherent to their identity and culture. It's one of respect and reverence. Capitalist economies around the world have a relationship with the environment predicated entirely on exploitation: exploitation of the land, exploitation of resources, exploitation of people. When they talk about indigenous sovereignty, they're referencing a way of conceptualizing humanity's relationship to the natural environment that is symbiotic, deeply reverent, and intrinsic to our health, well-being, and survival.