Author Topic: Addressing climate change  (Read 7594 times)

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Offline Granny

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Re: Addressing climate change
« Reply #105 on: May 27, 2019, 07:11:47 pm »
But hell would freeze over before you would go out to sea without the option of using that fossil fuel burner.  are experiencing naive nostalgia for a world that no one wants to return to.

I sailed without a motor quite a bit. Docking is tricky, but doable if you judge the wind properly.
And electric motors are improving all the time.

How's your horse and buggy holding up?
Must have been hard finally switching to motors!

Some things are just inevitable, TimG.
I picture you in a field of windmills, trying to hold back the wind.
Lol
« Last Edit: May 27, 2019, 07:15:13 pm by Granny »

Offline Granny

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Re: Addressing climate change
« Reply #106 on: May 27, 2019, 07:28:49 pm »
You guys can argue which is cheaper until the cows come home.  It won't be decided on a message board it will be decided by the private sector because they will be usually forced to use the cheapest, most efficient, most reliable energy or else their domestic and/or international competition will bury them.  Neither of your opinions matter on the subject, with all due respect.  If solar is cheaper, we're going to start seeing more and more leading businesses (not bad ones that fail) turn to solar.
Yes and no ...
There have been many forces, including science and environmentalists, who have promoted getting off fossil fuels for a very long time. Without that public will, and science and tech developments, solar and wind would not be developed to the point that they are cheaper, as they will be ... as soon as we stop subsidizing fossil fuel producers and make them pay full cost for their environmental damage.



Offline TimG

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Re: Addressing climate change
« Reply #107 on: May 27, 2019, 08:21:57 pm »
Some things are just inevitable, TimG.
So please tell me what the difference is between your belief that zero emission technology is economically viaable and my belief that adaptation is a more cost effect way to deal with the consequences of CO2 emissions? I can at least support my view by looking at the costs of various technology options today and extrapolating a bit to take into account incremental improvements. Your view that future tech will magically solve all of the problems has no basis other than blind faith.

Why should anyone take your view seriously? Why is your view any different from a belief that god will save us all?

Offline Granny

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Re: Addressing climate change
« Reply #108 on: May 27, 2019, 08:40:12 pm »
So please tell me what the difference is between your belief that zero emission technology is economically viaable and my belief that adaptation is a more cost effect way to deal with the consequences of CO2 emissions?
Hmm ... maybe ya got me there!
Wait!
I know!
How 'bout ... we wind down the use of fossil fuels to cut down on emissions so it will be less disruptive and less costly to adapt to climate change?
Otherwise, the full cost of using fossil fuels becomes quite prohibitive.
Not to mention really really dumb.
Quote
I can at least support my view by looking at the costs of various technology options today and extrapolating a bit to take into account incremental improvements. Your view that future tech will magically solve all of the problems has no basis other than blind faith.
Have you looked at the improvements in renewables technology in the last decade?
Apparently not.
Quote
Why should anyone take your view seriously? Why is your view any different from a belief that god will save us all?
Didn't god create sun and wind?

Offline TimG

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Re: Addressing climate change
« Reply #109 on: May 27, 2019, 08:57:21 pm »
How 'bout ... we wind down the use of fossil fuels to cut down on emissions so it will be less disruptive and less costly to adapt to climate change?
Anyone who does the math on economically plausible reductions given the tech currently available can only conclude that emission reductions will have next to zero effect on the future impacts of climate change. We will end up adapting no matter what. The only question is how much effort is wasted on futile gestures.

.Have you looked at the improvements in renewables technology in the last decade?
And all those improvements show is that wind and solar cannot meet our energy needs because of the problems created by the unreliable nature of wind and solar. These limits have become painfully obvious in every jurisdiction that has attempted to force the wide scale deployment of solar and wind.

Offline Omni

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Re: Addressing climate change
« Reply #110 on: May 27, 2019, 09:20:24 pm »
Hmm ... maybe ya got me there!
Wait!
I know!
How 'bout ... we wind down the use of fossil fuels to cut down on emissions so it will be less disruptive and less costly to adapt to climate change?
Otherwise, the full cost of using fossil fuels becomes quite prohibitive.
Not to mention really really dumb.Have you looked at the improvements in renewables technology in the last decade?
Apparently not. Didn't god create sun and wind?

I suspect tim didn't have the good sense to sell hos fossil fuel shares.
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Offline Queefer Sutherland

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Re: Addressing climate change
« Reply #111 on: May 27, 2019, 09:57:26 pm »
It is not that simple. If the market was left to sort it out then solar and wind would rarely be used where there is a grid because because they are not baseload or disapatchable which makes them implicitly less useful than other power sources. Governments can and have attempted to rig the market by dumping costs on non-renewables or the grid rather than subsidizing renewable power directly (e.g. with renewable mandates). In such a rigged market it could be profitable to run a solar/wind plant but it is important to remember that the market was rigged. Simply taxing fossil fuels more is rarely enough to make up for the costs incurred dealing with the unreliable nature of solar/wind.

Fair enough.  I guess we can just watch what those countries that don't care at all about climate change do with their power grid.
I queef, therefore I am.

Offline TimG

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Re: Addressing climate change
« Reply #112 on: May 27, 2019, 10:06:22 pm »
Fair enough.  I guess we can just watch what those countries that don't care at all about climate change do with their power grid.
Even then it is not that simple. Uruguay has successfully deployed close to 100% renewables because they have hydroelectric resources that are sufficient to meet the needs of their current population. However, those hydroelectric resources have a finite generation capacity so if the demand increases they will need to build fossil fuel or nuclear plants to balance any additional wind/solar capacity they add. For the same reason this model cannot be replicated in the majority of countries where the needs of their population already exceeds the generation capacity of their hydroelectric resources. That is one of the reasons why Quebec and BC can pretend to be virtuous while Atlantic Canada and Alberta are stuck with fossil fuels. When it comes to electricity generation geography matters a lot and what works in one country may not work in any other.
« Last Edit: May 27, 2019, 10:22:58 pm by TimG »

Offline Omni

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Re: Addressing climate change
« Reply #113 on: May 27, 2019, 10:55:04 pm »
Even then it is not that simple. Uruguay has successfully deployed close to 100% renewables because they have hydroelectric resources that are sufficient to meet the needs of their current population. However, those hydroelectric resources have a finite generation capacity so if the demand increases they will need to build fossil fuel or nuclear plants to balance any additional wind/solar capacity they add. For the same reason this model cannot be replicated in the majority of countries where the needs of their population already exceeds the generation capacity of their hydroelectric resources. That is one of the reasons why Quebec and BC can pretend to be virtuous while Atlantic Canada and Alberta are stuck with fossil fuels. When it comes to electricity generation geography matters a lot and what works in one country may not work in any other.
Actually B.C, Manitoba, Quebec, Newfoundland and Labrador, and Yukon can also "pretend to be virtuous" since they get over 80% of their electricity from hydro.

Offline Granny

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Re: Addressing climate change
« Reply #114 on: May 27, 2019, 11:41:53 pm »
Anyone who does the math on economically plausible reductions given the tech currently available can only conclude that emission reductions will have next to zero effect on the future impacts of climate change. We will end up adapting no matter what. The only question is how much effort is wasted on futile gestures.
And all those improvements show is that wind and solar cannot meet our energy needs because of the problems created by the unreliable nature of wind and solar. These limits have become painfully obvious in every jurisdiction that has attempted to force the wide scale deployment of solar and wind.
Fortunately there are better minds than yours and mine working to make renewables better and cheaper.

Offline TimG

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Re: Addressing climate change
« Reply #115 on: May 27, 2019, 11:52:54 pm »
Fortunately there are better minds than yours and mine working to make renewables better and cheaper.
More blind faith that some magician will pull a rabbit out of a hat. You don't make policy based on blind faith. You make policy based on what is known to be achievable.

Offline Omni

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Re: Addressing climate change
« Reply #116 on: May 28, 2019, 12:09:32 am »

 You make policy based on what is known to be achievable.

Hence the ever increasing use and popularity of renewables.
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Offline TimG

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Re: Addressing climate change
« Reply #117 on: May 28, 2019, 12:55:38 am »
Hence the ever increasing use and popularity of renewables.
Which is not unlike the "ever increasing use of biofuels" from 20 years ago. Eventually, the hype cycle will end and governments will be forced to acknowledge that the hidden costs of renewables limit their usefulness as a power source.  Until then we will be inundated with propaganda from ideologues and crony capitalists who grossly exaggerate their capabilities and underestimate their costs.

Offline Omni

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Re: Addressing climate change
« Reply #118 on: May 28, 2019, 01:16:33 am »
Which is not unlike the "ever increasing use of biofuels" from 20 years ago. Eventually, the hype cycle will end and governments will be forced to acknowledge that the hidden costs of renewables limit their usefulness as a power source.  Until then we will be inundated with propaganda from ideologues and crony capitalists who grossly exaggerate their capabilities and underestimate their costs.

Except you seem quite happy to ignore the hidden costs of burning fossil fuels. Clean ups plus subsidies. I'd rather throw a few bucks behind a power source that will be less likely to give me or the kids cancer.

Offline segnosaur

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Re: Addressing climate change
« Reply #119 on: May 28, 2019, 10:15:22 am »
It is not that simple. If the market was left to sort it out then solar and wind would rarely be used where there is a grid because because they are not baseload or disapatchable which makes them implicitly less useful than other power sources.
True, wind/solar power is not dispatchable and solar panels can't handle baseload. However, there are a couple of things to keep in mind:

- One advantage to solar panels is that its peak production happens to coincide with times of higher energy demand. It can't provide energy at night (not without some sort of storage mechanism), but demand will be lower at night anyways. So, use Nuclear/wind/hydro/etc. for the base load, and solar for the 'extra' energy requirements n the day

- There are some solar technologies that may actually be able to provide baseline power generation. Solar thermal energy (using molten salts for thermal energy storage) could be used instead of solar panels

- One of the plans for wind is to have wind farms in multiple areas of the country, so that even if the wind is not blowing in one area, other wind farms on the grid can make up for it.

I have spent a lot of effort here to promote nuclear, and I do think nuclear should be given a higher priority by governments than it is. But, I'm not necessarily opposed to the use of renewables; I just think that there are a lot of problems and that optimism regarding wind/solar should be tempered. But if they can be added to the energy mix, then great.
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