Author Topic: 2021 federal budget  (Read 1289 times)

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Online wilber

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Re: 2021 federal budget
« Reply #15 on: April 19, 2021, 10:36:43 pm »
Well, you know I agree with you about the pandemic spending and the frivolous lack of due diligence, but childcare is a good one.  I won't be one to benefit from by the time everything gets passed so I don't say this for me.  I agreed with the idea even in 2006 when Paul Martin ran with it as a campaign promise and I had no intention on ever becoming a parent at that point.

In the short term it helps get the job market going.  There has been a mass exodus of women from the work force because of the pandemic.

In the long term, it's a good measure as I mentioned in my previous post to ensure that parents (mostly mothers), don't end up taking too many years off in order to have children.  Many don't end up going back to work because their skills are not longer current.

I don't think child care is a bad thing at all but it is unethical to expect people who aren't even born yet to pay for our social programs. My problem is I don't see this government concerned about actually paying for programs through revenues. It's a borrow and spend bunch we have in Ottawa and I don't see that changing.
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Offline waldo

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Re: 2021 federal budget
« Reply #16 on: April 19, 2021, 11:40:09 pm »
No but all the gov cares about is dept-to-gdp so that's mainly what they'll look at.

you're welcome!

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Offline waldo

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Re: 2021 federal budget
« Reply #17 on: April 20, 2021, 11:59:10 am »
Yes except if we just keep borrowing and not paying it off, each generation gets to service all the debt from previous generations on top of their own. Do you think it would be right for you to be servicing debt that paid for your great great grand parent's social programs and every generation in between?

fuhgeddaboudit!



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Online wilber

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Re: 2021 federal budget
« Reply #18 on: April 20, 2021, 10:07:12 pm »
fuhgeddaboudit!




That only works if you can keep interest rates at 1% or less.
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Offline waldo

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Re: 2021 federal budget
« Reply #19 on: April 21, 2021, 08:41:21 am »

Offline cybercoma

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Re: 2021 federal budget
« Reply #20 on: April 21, 2021, 08:46:48 am »
say it ain't so! Eric O'Foole purposely parsing Minister Freeland's statement - oh my!

#ContextMatters


"The Liberals only care..." -Erin O'Toole

Since apparently this is how he quotes people, I'm sure he wouldn't care if people started using this.
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Offline cybercoma

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Re: 2021 federal budget
« Reply #21 on: April 21, 2021, 08:52:54 am »
Nobody is going to pay much of anything off.  We'll just be paying the interest and so will they.  As long as paying the interest is cheaper than actually paying off the debt there's little incentive to pay off the debt.
The government running deficits actually helps the economy grow when they spend the money on the correct things like helping people find jobs and pay for necessities or creating childcare spaces so parents can be productively involved in the workforce or run their independent businesses.

You guys consistently seem to think that the government running deficits is like individuals running household deficits. It's not. When you run a deficit it doesn't increase the amount of money you make at the end of the year most of the time, unless you're taking a business loan or a loan for an investment that will grow faster than the interest rate.

Online wilber

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Re: 2021 federal budget
« Reply #22 on: April 21, 2021, 09:53:27 am »
The government running deficits actually helps the economy grow when they spend the money on the correct things like helping people find jobs and pay for necessities or creating childcare spaces so parents can be productively involved in the workforce or run their independent businesses.

You guys consistently seem to think that the government running deficits is like individuals running household deficits. It's not. When you run a deficit it doesn't increase the amount of money you make at the end of the year most of the time, unless you're taking a business loan or a loan for an investment that will grow faster than the interest rate.

It means you are sentencing future generations to pay for your social programs if you never pay it off.
It means they run the risk of being buried by debt servicing costs when interest rates rise.
« Last Edit: April 21, 2021, 09:55:35 am by wilber »
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Offline Black Dog

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Re: 2021 federal budget
« Reply #23 on: April 21, 2021, 10:54:01 am »
It means you are sentencing future generations to pay for your social programs if you never pay it off.
It means they run the risk of being buried by debt servicing costs when interest rates rise.

Probably best to let everything fall apart now then I guess.

Offline eyeball

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Re: 2021 federal budget
« Reply #24 on: April 21, 2021, 11:07:48 am »
It means you are sentencing future generations to pay for your social programs if you never pay it off.
But aren't future generations benefitting from us building a better world?  That is the point of social programs isn't it?

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It means they run the risk of being buried by debt servicing costs when interest rates rise.
What about the risk of destroying the economy by things that cause interest rates to get out of control?

Don't let them rise the by doing as MMT calls for; ensuring politicians and their parties retire debt during good times as they're supposed to instead of spending on their pet projects.  If we can't get better control over our governments then of course things will blow up in our kid's faces...just like they blow up in our's.

The key to everything is more rigorous robust institutions of accountability.  Think of these as being like control rods in a nuclear reactor.

Online wilber

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Re: 2021 federal budget
« Reply #25 on: April 21, 2021, 12:21:07 pm »
But aren't future generations benefitting from us building a better world?  That is the point of social programs isn't it?


Will they be benefiting from continuing to pay for daycare their great great grandparents received? Are we building a better world for us and justifying it by saying it is for them?

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What about the risk of destroying the economy by things that cause interest rates to get out of control?


By continuing to dump new money into the economy much faster than the economy grows they will be driving inflation. Then we will have the choice of just allowing inflation to run or raising rates to control it.  By simply looking at debt to GDP numbers and pointing at other countries for justification with no intention of ever paying any debt off, we are just setting a trap for future generations.

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Don't let them rise the by doing as MMT calls for; ensuring politicians and their parties retire debt during good times as they're supposed to instead of spending on their pet projects.  If we can't get better control over our governments then of course things will blow up in our kid's faces...just like they blow up in our's.

The key to everything is more rigorous robust institutions of accountability.  Think of these as being like control rods in a nuclear reactor.

That would be nice but we have become a can we afford the payments society and our governments just reflect that.
"Never trust a man without a single redeeming vice" WSC

Offline Nipples Von Graham

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Re: 2021 federal budget
« Reply #26 on: April 21, 2021, 03:04:42 pm »
The government running deficits actually helps the economy grow when they spend the money on the correct things like helping people find jobs and pay for necessities or creating childcare spaces so parents can be productively involved in the workforce or run their independent businesses.

You guys consistently seem to think that the government running deficits is like individuals running household deficits. It's not. When you run a deficit it doesn't increase the amount of money you make at the end of the year most of the time, unless you're taking a business loan or a loan for an investment that will grow faster than the interest rate.

I never said or implied that running a country's debt is the same as an individual's debt.  I agree that gov debt can be an investment that creates more GDP at the end of the day.

And individual, however, can also invest in good or bad things that grow their finances just like the government can.  Student debt can be a good investment if you pay for a useful degree, and mortgage debt is usually good in the longterm as your house will escalate in value, and even a car loan can be good if you can only get to work by vehicle.  If you're running up credit card debt to buy fancy clothes or vacations then that's another story.

How the gov vs individuals borrow is different, as is their ability to pay back debt or print money.  As an individual it sure would be nice to take out a bigger mortgage to pay for a nicer house if I never had to pay back the mortgage and could let someone else's great grandkids pay for it.
« Last Edit: April 21, 2021, 03:07:32 pm by Gorgeous Graham »
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Online wilber

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Re: 2021 federal budget
« Reply #27 on: April 21, 2021, 03:05:21 pm »
If you look at waldo's chart and compare it to historical interest rates, rates have a bigger effect on debt servicing costs than the amount of debt. That is changing now as the government drives up debt on a scale never seen outside of a world war.
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Offline Nipples Von Graham

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I can tell how good of a person you are by how you treat the people you disagree with.

Offline waldo

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Re: 2021 federal budget
« Reply #29 on: April 21, 2021, 08:22:19 pm »
instead of yet another thread drifting to satisfy member wilber's want to show his ignorance in regards deficit/debt, isn't there anyone wanting to discuss the actual 2021 budget? ... you know, like the thread title says!