Author Topic: "Rebel Media" imploding this week  (Read 2017 times)

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Offline BC_cheque

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Re: "Rebel Media" imploding this week
« Reply #60 on: August 26, 2017, 02:32:30 pm »
Oh bullshit. Trump's big catastrophic week was as a result of trying to lay any blame on them instead of keeping it entirely on the Nazis. Now progressive idiots around the English speaking world are desperately trying to find statues they can get outraged over so they can demand they be torn down. Whether it's Cornwallis and Sir John A McDonald here, or Washington, Jefferson and Roosevelt in the US, or Nelson's column in England or Cook's in Australia.


When I first started reading about McDonald in the news and removing his name, my first reaction was to agree with your point.  It does seem like a knee jerk reaction to what's happening in the US.

But then I found out how racist Sir John was, even in the context of his era, and how sympathetic and helpful he was to the confederates backing slavery, and I get it.   

We can be proud of the country and its history without celebrating some of the extreme elements that were part of it. 

Offline BC_cheque

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Re: "Rebel Media" imploding this week
« Reply #61 on: August 26, 2017, 02:44:27 pm »
Edited to clarify:  my post that you over-reacted to was actually intended to challenge Kimmy a bit; she can at least respond reasonably and logically.   I can count on her to effectively point out the flaw in any argument using reasoning, rather than relying on wild accusations and insults to 'prove' someone wrong.

The whole thing seemed really silly to me, tbh.  Yes, Sir John would've been a lot more tactful if he'd put quotations around that word, and the fact that he didn't could show a level of disregard for its use, but the reaction to it was a bit exaggerated and then SJ's reaction to the criticism certainly didn't help his case.

It really escalated to a point that didn't need to, IMO.

Offline JMT

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Re: "Rebel Media" imploding this week
« Reply #62 on: August 26, 2017, 03:38:35 pm »
But then I found out how racist Sir John was, even in the context of his era, and how sympathetic and helpful he was to the confederates backing slavery, and I get it.   

We can be proud of the country and its history without celebrating some of the extreme elements that were part of it.

I get that, I really do, but it's hard to celebrate Canada without celebrating people like McDonald or (SirJohn is shuddering as I say this) Trudeau Sr.

Offline BC_cheque

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Re: "Rebel Media" imploding this week
« Reply #63 on: August 26, 2017, 03:54:09 pm »
I get that, I really do, but it's hard to celebrate Canada without celebrating people like McDonald or (SirJohn is shuddering as I say this) Trudeau Sr.

What's your thoughts on confederate statues in the US?

Offline Omni

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Re: "Rebel Media" imploding this week
« Reply #64 on: August 26, 2017, 04:56:51 pm »
Does anyone think that children in Germany are unaware of their history because there is no "Hitler High School" or "Goring Collegiate" to attend? I think not.
If you wish to celebrate people from history who did things we would consider deplorable today, at least put their likenesses in places where people don't have to walk by them everyday.

Offline JMT

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Re: "Rebel Media" imploding this week
« Reply #65 on: August 26, 2017, 05:03:12 pm »
What's your thoughts on confederate statues in the US?

The confederacy doesn't exist anymore - no reason to celebrate it.

Offline JMT

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Re: "Rebel Media" imploding this week
« Reply #66 on: August 26, 2017, 05:10:50 pm »
Does anyone think that children in Germany are unaware of their history because there is no "Hitler High School" or "Goring Collegiate" to attend? I think not.
If you wish to celebrate people from history who did things we would consider deplorable today, at least put their likenesses in places where people don't have to walk by them everyday.

McDonald also birthed our nation so...

Offline BC_cheque

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Re: "Rebel Media" imploding this week
« Reply #67 on: August 26, 2017, 05:32:51 pm »
McDonald also birthed our nation so...

I actually see both sides. It's not as cut and dry as the confederate statues but it's definitely not a non issue either as Sir John made it out to be.

There is a whole lot about McDonald I wasn't aware of. I went from thinking people are getting uptight over nothing to seeing their point.




Offline SirJohn

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Re: "Rebel Media" imploding this week
« Reply #68 on: August 26, 2017, 06:20:18 pm »
When I first started reading about McDonald in the news and removing his name, my first reaction was to agree with your point.  It does seem like a knee jerk reaction to what's happening in the US.

But then I found out how racist Sir John was, even in the context of his era, and how sympathetic and helpful he was to the confederates backing slavery, and I get it.   

We can be proud of the country and its history without celebrating some of the extreme elements that were part of it.

There are no perfect people. In the context of his era he wasn't racist. If he was 'helpful' to the Confederates or had sympathy with them it was likely because relations between the US and Canada were not exactly rosy. The Rideau Canal, which I lived next to for some time, was constructed for military reasons, in fear of another attempt at invasion by the US. It was only finished about thirty odd years before confederation, so one could presume the idea of the US breaking up wasn't likely to cause many tears in Canada.

To repeat what I've said before, there were people in Canada who would have just as soon shot all the natives.  McDonald's purpose in backing the residential school system was to educate and civilize natives so they could one day live together with white people. You know how many white people of the time would have been horrified by the very idea?

Besides, which, given all McDonald accomplished, the idea he should be shunned as beneath us is absurd.

We cannot expect the past to have shared all of today's values; that would only be possible in a world in which there is neither change nor progress. But today's Canada did not fall from the sky this morning. It is not a tabula rasa. Our liberal, democratic, rule-of-law system, with constitutionalism and federalism and habits of negotiation and peaceful coexistence, is what the Fathers of Confederation established and reinforced.
Without the actions they took in the past, our present does not exist, and we have no future.
Putting Macdonald in the same box as Jefferson Davis – just more dead, white, male racists, right? – is the height of ignorance. One diminished human freedom and possibilities. The other created a country that does the opposite.


https://beta.theglobeandmail.com/opinion/editorials/globe-editorial-goodbye-sir-john-a-goodbye-canada/article36090107/
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline SirJohn

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Re: "Rebel Media" imploding this week
« Reply #69 on: August 26, 2017, 06:29:43 pm »
You responded to my post as if I'd addressed you, when in fact I was responding to Kimmy's post and expressing some thoughts of my own.

About me. At least be honest enough to admit that.

Quote
In my response to Kimmy's post, I didn't insult anyone - especially not you.  I did ask some questions about the way in which language reflects what we believe and how it can influence perception, but again this did not mention you at all.

If someone uses an inappropriate word outside their usual circle, doesn't that suggest that for them, that word is familiar and normal?   Then one must ask, why would a word like 'squaw' be familiar or normal to anyone?   Why would someone defend it's use, even in buttfuck nowhere and even if the user is merely a volunteer clerk?  Is casual and unthinking racism acceptable to Conservatives, and so they resent media noticing and people objecting?   If this racism is acceptable to mainstream/moderate Conservatives, then maybe the alt-right and White Supremacists aren't really so much a fringe as we think?


Your post was about me and I responded to it. Stop bitching that when you start smearing me I respond less than politely.
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline SirJohn

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Re: "Rebel Media" imploding this week
« Reply #70 on: August 26, 2017, 06:32:03 pm »
Does anyone think that children in Germany are unaware of their history because there is no "Hitler High School" or "Goring Collegiate" to attend? I think not.


Are you actually equating Sir John A MacDonald with Goring or Hitler?
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline SirJohn

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Re: "Rebel Media" imploding this week
« Reply #71 on: August 26, 2017, 06:40:35 pm »
To repeat what I pointed out to MH earlier, there used to be 4 million members of the KKK in America. Now there are 5000-8000. There are a half dozen Nazi groups, the largest of which has about 400 members. There are far, far fewer in Canada. Despite the tiny numbers, the Left, particularly progressives, are on a frantic witch hunt against anything they can accuse of being too far right, or associated with anything on the right. There have been four right wing rallies I'm aware of since Charlottesville (Boston, Quebec, Vancouver, San Francisco). Each by a few dozen or a couple of hundred people, none of which were Nazis, KKK members of white supremacists, all of which publicly distanced themselves from those groups and denounced racism. Despite that, there have been massive counter protests, often violent,  against each of these rallies with leftist politicians denouncing them as white supremacists and hate groups.

Like all intellectually autocratic groups which oppose basic freedoms, the Left needs enemies to rally the troops and justify their denial of freedoms, even if they're tiny, unthreatening enemies, even if they have to pump them up into big bogeyman groups that frighten children in their beds. I wonder how long it will be until some leftist politician, perhaps one of Trudeau's boys and girls,  proposes new 'anti-hate' laws which ban any and all unflattering descriptions or statements about racial and religious groups.
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline Omni

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Re: "Rebel Media" imploding this week
« Reply #72 on: August 26, 2017, 07:26:03 pm »


Like all intellectually autocratic groups which oppose basic freedoms, the Left needs enemies to rally the troops and justify their denial of freedoms,


Are you suggesting it was "the left" who were marching screaming "Jews will not replace us"? Watch the videos and get a feeling for what actually is going on in the world.

Offline SirJohn

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Re: "Rebel Media" imploding this week
« Reply #73 on: August 26, 2017, 07:54:00 pm »

Like all intellectually autocratic groups which oppose basic freedoms, the Left needs enemies to rally the troops and justify their denial of freedoms,

Are you suggesting it was "the left" who were marching screaming "Jews will not replace us"? Watch the videos and get a feeling for what actually is going on in the world.

That was a couple of hundred morons. So? They had a permit to march and to say whatever the **** they wanted. That's the nature of freedom. What the Left was doing was screaming and yelling and shutting down their right to free speech. Now, maybe I can understand, if not agree with that, given it's Nazis. But the four other rallies which were shut down by screaming mobs were not Nazis or White supremacists. The talk that was supposed to happen at Ryerson was not by Nazis or White supremacists. Countless other talks and discussions cancelled over the last year because of mobs of hostile leftists were not Nazis or racists or White supremacists either.
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline Omni

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Re: "Rebel Media" imploding this week
« Reply #74 on: August 26, 2017, 08:03:38 pm »
That was a couple of hundred morons. So? They had a permit to march and to say whatever the **** they wanted. That's the nature of freedom. What the Left was doing was screaming and yelling and shutting down their right to free speech. Now, maybe I can understand, if not agree with that, given it's Nazis. But the four other rallies which were shut down by screaming mobs were not Nazis or White supremacists. The talk that was supposed to happen at Ryerson was not by Nazis or White supremacists. Countless other talks and discussions cancelled over the last year because of mobs of hostile leftists were not Nazis or racists or White supremacists either.

"Countless other talks and discussions cancelled" Care to try and verify that or do we just write it off as yet another wild assumption you are famous for?