Author Topic: "Rebel Media" imploding this week  (Read 917 times)

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Offline TimG

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Re: "Rebel Media" imploding this week
« Reply #105 on: August 28, 2017, 08:12:05 pm »
Not to mention the radical right wing has killed FAR more people in North America and even the West than radical Islamists, but hey....pay no attention to the white man behind the curtain....there's Mooselems at our door.
What are you talking about? 9/11 killed 3000. Oklahoma was the worst with only 168 deaths. In terms of risk Islamic radicals are a far greater threat to the public than "right wing groups".

Offline SirJohn

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Re: "Rebel Media" imploding this week
« Reply #106 on: August 28, 2017, 08:16:14 pm »
'few' meaning low percentage ?  It's not comforting to me.  If 5% of the population is willing to engage in open or stealth warfare it's too much.

That would put their numbers at about 15 million. That seems extremely unlikely or we'd see WAY larger numbers of members in the KKK/Nazi/White supremacist groups.

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The rest of your post seems to be about immigration which is irrelevant to this discussion, to my mind.

Really? What was his number one promise? What got him his first huge bump in popularity? Keeping out Mexicans and building that wall. Muslims. Keep em out. Immigrants. Too many. America first. ?

Irrelevant? Hardly.
« Last Edit: August 28, 2017, 08:34:54 pm by SirJohn »
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline MH

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Re: "Rebel Media" imploding this week
« Reply #107 on: August 28, 2017, 08:31:35 pm »
Not to mention the radical right wing has killed FAR more people in North America and even the West than radical Islamists, but hey....pay no attention to the white man behind the curtain....there's Mooselems at our door.

It's not the right wing that I'm counting in my 5%, it's extreme right and left groups.
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Offline cybercoma

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Re: "Rebel Media" imploding this week
« Reply #108 on: August 28, 2017, 08:32:34 pm »
What are you talking about? 9/11 killed 3000. Oklahoma was the worst with only 168 deaths. In terms of risk Islamic radicals are a far greater threat to the public than "right wing groups".
You think those are the only two attacks?

Offline MH

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Re: "Rebel Media" imploding this week
« Reply #109 on: August 28, 2017, 08:33:17 pm »
Really? What was his number one promise? What got him his first huge bump in popularity? Keeping out Mexicans and building that wall. Muslims. Keep em out. Immigrants. Cut it. Irrelevant? Hardly.

It's not about the issue anymore - it's about extreme right/left violence.  The issues don't matter.

Offline SirJohn

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Re: "Rebel Media" imploding this week
« Reply #110 on: August 28, 2017, 08:37:49 pm »
It's not about the issue anymore - it's about extreme right/left violence.  The issues don't matter.

Your worry is about where things are going. The cite I posted pointed out that on their own the extremists can't do much. They need help from conservatives.

On that other web site, you know the one, of the people who support Trump, how important does immigration seem to be to them?
What makes you think it's not even more important to American Trump supporters?

And the cite didn't just talk about immigration, btw, as a key. It said "regarding established brakes on the pace of change, and the settled rules of the game.”

And btw, the groups who are being attacked by leftist groups while trying to hold rallies etc. the last week, those are not Nazis or white supremacists, but mostly just Trump supporters, or people protesting against Islam. This kind of behavior is really going to **** them off. Especially when it looks like the police are willing to stand aside and do nothing.

When I read that story about the attack on the prayer thing at Berkeley I got angry. And I am most certainly neither a Trump supporter or a religious person.
So how do you think the Trump supporters and religious people in the US are going to react?
« Last Edit: August 28, 2017, 08:40:52 pm by SirJohn »
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline wilber

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Re: "Rebel Media" imploding this week
« Reply #111 on: August 28, 2017, 08:44:45 pm »
It's not the right wing that I'm counting in my 5%, it's extreme right and left groups.

5%? Thats only 17 million Americans, give or take. Nothing to worry about.
"Never trust a man without a single redeeming vice" WSC

Offline MH

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Re: "Rebel Media" imploding this week
« Reply #112 on: August 28, 2017, 08:50:05 pm »
Your worry is about where things are going. The cite I posted pointed out that on their own the extremists can't do much. They need help from conservatives.

The from the Atlantic about immigration ?

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On that other web site, you know the one, of the people who support Trump, how important does immigration seem to be to them?
What makes you think it's not even more important to American Trump supporters?

It's utterly irrelevant to the discussion of extremist violence.  Even now, policy discussions are barely part of the discussion.  It's "us" vs "them".
 
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And btw, the groups who are being attacked by leftist groups while trying to hold rallies etc. the last week, those are not Nazis or white supremacists, but mostly just Trump supporters, or people protesting against Islam. This kind of behavior is really going to **** them off. Especially when it looks like the police are willing to stand aside and do nothing.

You're not getting it.  I'm talking about extreme left and right violence.  You telling me "this is really going to **** them off" makes no sense in the context of what I'm talking about.

---   ---   ---   ---   ---   ---   ---   

Here's what's going to happen in the worst case: more protests, but with shootings and gun violence.  There will be no consensus on who is at fault, or what to do.  There will be no leadership that can unify.  Violence will morph into targeted assassinations or something else.  With large groups coordinating online, there will be little that law enforcement can do.

I'm worried about this because I don't see any guardrails that are preventing this.

Offline SirJohn

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Re: "Rebel Media" imploding this week
« Reply #113 on: August 28, 2017, 09:15:55 pm »
Here's what's going to happen in the worst case: more protests, but with shootings and gun violence.  There will be no consensus on who is at fault, or what to do.  There will be no leadership that can unify.  Violence will morph into targeted assassinations or something else.  With large groups coordinating online, there will be little that law enforcement can do.

I'm worried about this because I don't see any guardrails that are preventing this.

You prevent it by addressing the frustration, anger and sense of alienation on the part of the right and far right, just to start. A lot of commentary on Trump being elected had to do with people who voted for him because they wanted to "trash the system". You don't want to trash the system unless you feel you're being ignored by it and it's acting against your interests.

Good policing stops street violence. But that's a temporary measure. Still, if you stop the street violence you put a cork on the back and forth revenge attacks - like I believe that lunatic in the car in Charleston likely was.

Unfortunately, the US has a dearth of good leadership right now, on either side of the political fence. The Republicans are aiming too much to please their conservative/religious base, and the Democrats are aiming too much to please their progressive Identity politics base. No one is looking at that mass of people in the middle. Trump called out to poor, lower income whites and it worked because neither of the parties had paid them or their problems the slightest attention up  until then.
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline MH

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Re: "Rebel Media" imploding this week
« Reply #114 on: August 28, 2017, 09:21:07 pm »
You prevent it by addressing the frustration, anger and sense of alienation on the part of the right and far right, just to start. A lot of commentary on Trump being elected had to do with people who voted for him because they wanted to "trash the system". You don't want to trash the system unless you feel you're being ignored by it and it's acting against your interests.

But he won.  So what else needs to be done ?  And what about the left ?  I thought they were also perpetuating violence.

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Good policing stops street violence. But that's a temporary measure. Still, if you stop the street violence you put a cork on the back and forth revenge attacks - like I believe that lunatic in the car in Charleston likely was.

How ?

I don't see a way.

Offline SirJohn

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Re: "Rebel Media" imploding this week
« Reply #115 on: August 28, 2017, 09:42:55 pm »
But he won.

Trump is not the solution to the sense of alienation on the right. He simply took advantage of it. He doesn't give a **** about any of those people. And he's not going to do much of anything on their behalf except tinker with stuff like immigration.

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So what else needs to be done ?

The Democrats used to be the party of the lower middle class/working class Americans. They abandoned them to play identity politics just like the Republicans abandoned them to court the moneyed interests of corporate America and the eager ardent support of evangelicals. I think both parties need to reach out to them.

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  And what about the left ?  I thought they were also perpetuating violence.

The Left needs to stop pretending every single policy they believe in is 100% morally pure and righteous, and everyone who disagrees is scum who need to be silenced. It is that attitude, which started on college campuses, which has spread now to incite the leftist mobs in the streets.
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline MH

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Re: "Rebel Media" imploding this week
« Reply #116 on: August 28, 2017, 09:56:52 pm »
Trump is not the solution to the sense of alienation on the right. He simply took advantage of it. He doesn't give a **** about any of those people. And he's not going to do much of anything on their behalf except tinker with stuff like immigration.

Ok, but their guy did win.  If he can't alleviate this, it's doubtful there will be another politician soon who will make the right feel that they have a guy who is ostensibly as far right as him.

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The Democrats used to be the party of the lower middle class/working class Americans. They abandoned them to play identity politics just like the Republicans abandoned them to court the moneyed interests of corporate America and the eager ardent support of evangelicals. I think both parties need to reach out to them.

Maybe - but they would also have to keep the support they have in the centre to do so.  It can't be an either/or thing.

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The Left needs to stop pretending every single policy they believe in is 100% morally pure and righteous, and everyone who disagrees is scum who need to be silenced. It is that attitude, which started on college campuses, which has spread now to incite the leftist mobs in the streets.

Not realistic.  It's like leftists in my news feed saying that the right just has to stop being so racist.  Leopards won't change their spots.  A big personality like Trump could unify but it would have to be a unifier.

Offline Omni

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Re: "Rebel Media" imploding this week
« Reply #117 on: August 28, 2017, 10:16:22 pm »
Trump is not the solution to the sense of alienation on the right. He simply took advantage of it. He doesn't give a **** about any of those people. And he's not going to do much of anything on their behalf except tinker with stuff like immigration.

The Democrats used to be the party of the lower middle class/working class Americans. They abandoned them to play identity politics just like the Republicans abandoned them to court the moneyed interests of corporate America and the eager ardent support of evangelicals. I think both parties need to reach out to them.

The Left needs to stop pretending every single policy they believe in is 100% morally pure and righteous, and everyone who disagrees is scum who need to be silenced. It is that attitude, which started on college campuses, which has spread now to incite the leftist mobs in the streets.

Maybe you should stop pretending it wasn't alt right people carrying flags and guns, and screaming racist slurs who filled the streets in Charlottesville. You and Trump seem to be tarred with that same moral equivalency
 brush.

Offline MH

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Re: "Rebel Media" imploding this week
« Reply #118 on: August 29, 2017, 05:52:06 am »
New topic.

Offline SirJohn

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Re: "Rebel Media" imploding this week
« Reply #119 on: August 29, 2017, 10:44:37 am »
Ok, but their guy did win.  If he can't alleviate this, it's doubtful there will be another politician soon who will make the right feel that they have a guy who is ostensibly as far right as him.

He didn't alleviate it because he's not a member of either party and doesn't know how to work with either of them to get things done. Well plus he's a moron. But if the country wants to heal itself its political classes needs to find a way to reach out to the white middle and lower class.

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Not realistic.  It's like leftists in my news feed saying that the right just has to stop being so racist.  Leopards won't change their spots.  A big personality like Trump could unify but it would have to be a unifier.

Trump isn't capable of leadership. We both know that. I think a column in the Post today sums things up somewhat well.

There are two main theories of Trump’s support. One is that a large minority of Americans—40 per cent, give or take—are racist idiots. This theory is at least tacitly endorsed by the Democratic Party and the mainstream liberal media. The other is that a large majority of this large minority are good citizens with intelligible and legitimate opinions who so resent being regarded as racist idiots that they’ll back Trump almost regardless. They may not admire the man but he’s on their side, he vents their frustration, he afflicts the people who think so little of them—and that’s good enough.

http://nationalpost.com/opinion/clive-crook-why-reasonable-people-can-still-support-trump
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum