Author Topic: Worst GOP POTUS of the 21st Century?  (Read 747 times)

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Offline Queefer Sutherland

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Re: Worst GOP POTUS of the 21st Century?
« Reply #15 on: September 02, 2018, 01:24:28 pm »
The celebration of John McCain is a bizarre one. He should have never been a national hero. He should have never been in Vietnam to begin with. Since he was, you can't ignore the fact that the Vietnam War is a god damned tragedy that lead to the death of many innocent people under some fake notion of freedom. Americans are to celebrate what exactly? Vietnam never posed a threat to America, ever.

As a senator, he made many terrible decisions. Sure he spoke out against Trump recently, but he also voted for some of the worst legislation Congress put through. He also dignified the Tea Party's ideology of ignorance by accepting Palin as a running mate. Politically, he was part of the problem in American politics. He has harmed many people by standing alongside politicians who've made decisions that have and will continue to have literally dire consequences for Americans and even others around the world. In short, **** John McCain and all the celebration around him. My sympathies to his family, but also to the families of people who've died by his hand in congressional votes and military "valor."

A lot of his votes make him a piece of crap as a politician.  i'm with you.
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Offline kimmy

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Re: Worst GOP POTUS of the 21st Century?
« Reply #16 on: September 06, 2018, 11:37:27 pm »
The Obama presidency:

 -zero wars started.

 -inherited the biggest economic collapse since the 1930s, left office with rising employment, rising economic indicators, and falling deficits.

 -biggest scandal was the time he wore a tan suit.

Discuss.


 -k
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Offline Michael Hardner

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Re: Worst GOP POTUS of the 21st Century?
« Reply #17 on: September 07, 2018, 04:59:49 am »
Obama and Harper are remarkably similar: generally they were centrists who kept the liberal economic boat afloat during a bad recession. 

Harper reachedout to xenophobes, presumably for political reasons.  Obama was black and withstood a barrage of illegitimate questions about his citizenship.

The times they-are-a-changin' and we won't get a politician until we have somebody young enough to understand how to unify in the new media environment.  Trump was a winner because he knew how to disunify.

I know I overstate the role of media, but as an example - this is what Hitler (and perhaps FDR) did with the new media of the day: radio.

Offline JMT

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Re: Worst GOP POTUS of the 21st Century?
« Reply #18 on: September 07, 2018, 09:11:24 am »
The Obama presidency:

 -zero wars started.

 -inherited the biggest economic collapse since the 1930s, left office with rising employment, rising economic indicators, and falling deficits.

 -biggest scandal was the time he wore a tan suit.

Discuss.


 -k

Well, he did start Libya.

Offline Michael Hardner

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Re: Worst GOP POTUS of the 21st Century?
« Reply #19 on: September 07, 2018, 09:33:02 am »
Also I have knowledgeable centrist friends who say he botched Syria by making idle threats.

Offline ?Impact

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Re: Worst GOP POTUS of the 21st Century?
« Reply #20 on: September 07, 2018, 11:41:47 am »
The Obama presidency:

 -zero wars started.

What about Libya?

Yes, Obama did significantly lower the number of American soldiers in war zones but there was a lot of drone and special forces operations in Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria, Yemen, Somalia and Pakistan

Offline SirJohn

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Re: Worst GOP POTUS of the 21st Century?
« Reply #21 on: September 07, 2018, 12:03:23 pm »
Obama and Harper are remarkably similar: generally they were centrists who kept the liberal economic boat afloat during a bad recession. 

Harper reachedout to xenophobes, presumably for political reasons.

By increasing immigration, you mean?
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline SirJohn

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Re: Worst GOP POTUS of the 21st Century?
« Reply #22 on: September 07, 2018, 12:04:46 pm »
Well, he did start Libya.

As I recall it Libya was in the midst of a bloody civil war during 'arab spring' and all the lefties were bemoaning the violence and the fate of children and demanding the West do something to stop it.
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline Michael Hardner

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Re: Worst GOP POTUS of the 21st Century?
« Reply #23 on: September 07, 2018, 10:12:58 pm »
By increasing immigration, you mean?

No.  Denying hospital services to refugees ... which cost almost nothing.

Offline segnosaur

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Re: Worst GOP POTUS of the 21st Century?
« Reply #24 on: September 10, 2018, 02:10:48 pm »
Quote
The Obama presidency:

 -zero wars started.
What about Libya?
Libya's big problems may have started under Obama, but I'm not really sure its accurate to say Obama "started" the war.

The conflict largely began as internal protests, and it wasn't until days/weeks after actual fighting broke out that NATO and the U.S.  got involved.
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Offline segnosaur

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Re: Worst GOP POTUS of the 21st Century?
« Reply #25 on: September 10, 2018, 02:22:44 pm »
... and Dubya also presided over the biggest economic disaster since the 1930s. 
It is true... the economic meltdown started under Bush's watch. But, in his defense, some of the factors that contributed to the meltdown (such as financial deregulation) were policies that other presidents (including Clinton) engaged in.

Quote
And in spite of those two gigantic disasters under Bush's presidency, I'm not sure that Trump won't be worse when all is said and done.   We'll have to wait and see what the long term effects of undermining the western alliance and cozying up to the likes of Putin, Li'l Kim, Ergogan, and Dutarde turn out to be. As well as the long-term effect of Trump's massive deficit increases on the US economy.  He may yet end up making Dubya look smart by comparison.
Yup. The democrats learned at least some lessons from the 2007/2008 meltdown... having SOME financial regulations is a good thing. Trump and the republicans seem to have ignored that message.

And not only is there a huge debt increase under Trump, the current tax cuts are expected to expire for middle class workers in the future (while the wealthy will continue to see less tax). That will cause a big hit to the economy. Also, infrastructure is crumbling, and the U.S. failure to invest in "green technologies" mean that it may be left behind by other countries as they shift away from fossil fuel.

The problem is, the worst problems may actually happen years after Trump has left office, so that some other president gets blamed for Trump's bad policies.

Offline wilber

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Re: Worst GOP POTUS of the 21st Century?
« Reply #26 on: September 10, 2018, 02:37:02 pm »
I think what makes Trump worse is the threat he poses to democratic institutions and their safeguards. He deliberately tries to undermine those institutions which are in place to restrict the excess of people just like him. Constitution, Congress, courts and free press. Will he be a wake up call to the complacent or will he be the future?
"Never trust a man without a single redeeming vice" WSC

Offline Omni

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Re: Worst GOP POTUS of the 21st Century?
« Reply #27 on: September 10, 2018, 02:55:04 pm »
I think what makes Trump worse is the threat he poses to democratic institutions and their safeguards. He deliberately tries to undermine those institutions which are in place to restrict the excess of people just like him. Constitution, Congress, courts and free press. Will he be a wake up call to the complacent or will he be the future?

I would agree. He attempts to interpret the constitution in such a was as to assume his office puts him above the rule of law, and his comments about "fake news" and "the enemy of the people" have resulted in various outbreaks of violence against press people. I hope to hell the people who are at least somewhat educated in the US get off their lazy asses and start turning out at the polls, bo th in November and in 2020. Otherwise he will continue along his processes that another well known "leader" promoted back in 1939.   

Offline Queefer Sutherland

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Re: Worst GOP POTUS of the 21st Century?
« Reply #28 on: September 10, 2018, 05:46:27 pm »
What about Libya?
Libya's big problems may have started under Obama, but I'm not really sure its accurate to say Obama "started" the war.

The conflict largely began as internal protests, and it wasn't until days/weeks after actual fighting broke out that NATO and the U.S.  got involved.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2016/04/13/obama-admits-that-his-handling-of-the-libya-war-was-his-worst-mistake-but-not-that-it-was-unconstitutional/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.3b4dc8908dd4

The US-led NATO assassinated Gaddafi largely for oil interests.  The war has many similarities to Iraq, including the aftermath left by a power vacuum.  At least Bush went to Congress for his stupid war, Obama's war was unconstitutional.  Obama was also pretty weak standing up to Putin. But overall, a much better POTUS than Trump & Bush.
« Last Edit: September 10, 2018, 05:50:32 pm by Coonlight Graham »
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Offline segnosaur

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Re: Worst GOP POTUS of the 21st Century?
« Reply #29 on: September 11, 2018, 12:42:24 pm »
The US-led NATO assassinated Gaddafi largely for oil interests.
Uhh... no, they didn't.

Demonstrations began. Things escalated. A civil war broke out. Gaddafi and the government were being naughty (using aircraft and snipers to target demonstrators.). Rebels didn't like that. The choice that NATO had was either get involved to prevent more bloodshed or allow the fighting to continue.

There is no need to assign responsibility to "oil interests". Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

Quote
The war has many similarities to Iraq, including the aftermath left by a power vacuum.
The war also had some key differences... most importantly, the Libyan war was initiated largely by internal politics and protests that escalated, whereas the Iraq was largely initiated by external factors (namely the U.S. and certain allies).

Quote
At least Bush went to Congress for his stupid war, Obama's war was unconstitutional.
That is... fuzzy to say the least. The constitution specifies that congress has the ability to "declare war", but that the president is head of the military (and the president does need the authority to deploy forces on short notice to handle emergencies, outside of  formal wars.)

The line between a "war" and a simple military deployment is not always clear cut and hasn't really been tested in the courts.
Quote
Obama was also pretty weak standing up to Putin.
Maybe, maybe not. (Not sure if you're referring to Russian meddling in the election or just foreign policy in general.)

About election interference, there were a lot of factors that had to be juggled:
- As president, he would have to ensure his activities didn't unfairly influence the election. Having the FBI/CIA/etc. point out that "Russia helped Trump" in big, bold letters might be seen as the government overreach.

- Obama did try to get the Republicans to put together a bipartisan joint response, but McConnell (you know, the REPUBLICAN senate leader) vetoed the idea.

https://www.npr.org/2018/02/21/587614043/fact-check-why-didnt-obama-stop-russia-s-election-interference-in-2016
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