Author Topic: White Supremacy's Death Toll for 2017  (Read 1474 times)

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Offline Goddess

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Re: White Supremacy's Death Toll for 2017
« Reply #30 on: January 22, 2018, 05:40:40 pm »
good on ya for highlighting this! However, you should more clearly emphasize the context in relation to Johnson's expressed concerns about domestic terrorism centered on right-wing extremist threats... Johnson, formerly the senior domestic terrorism analyst at the U.S. Department of Homeland Security, stated the imbalance is dangerous and argues the U.S. government needs to step up the monitoring of white nationalist websites, encourage communities to report people who advocate for white supremacist violence, and fund counter-messaging efforts to combat the white nationalist narrative in susceptible communities.

but again, good on ya for bringing this forward!

You can see from the chart that terrorism from white supremicists and jihadis are both growing.
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Offline SirJohn

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Re: White Supremacy's Death Toll for 2017
« Reply #31 on: January 22, 2018, 06:33:43 pm »
No it doesn’t, they incite themselves. Enough of the blame the victims bullshit, they are solely responsible for the choices they make.

I didn't blame the victims. I blamed policy. Donald Trump took advantage of the fears those policies aroused.
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline SirJohn

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Re: White Supremacy's Death Toll for 2017
« Reply #32 on: January 22, 2018, 06:36:54 pm »
But of course, the interference by Westerners in the homelands of Muslims has had absolutely no bearing on the increase in extremist violence against Westerners.   After all, it's only white/westerners who have the right to resent the imposition of 'other cultures' in their homeland, eh?

That would only  make sense if the Muslim world was peaceful prior to this 'interference' and at no point in its entire history has that been the case. The Muslim world has been engaged in violent attacks on its non-Muslim neighbors and on itself  for almost the entirety of the existence of Islam. The large scale assaults on their neighbors only stopped when neighboring states advanced further than the Muslim countries to the point they easily defeated them and then conquered them in turn.

The contention that it is 'western interference' is just the flatulence of Islamist apologists.
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline SirJohn

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Re: White Supremacy's Death Toll for 2017
« Reply #33 on: January 22, 2018, 06:50:49 pm »
I've listened to your comments when confronted with these facts before,

No, you haven't, because no one has confronted me with 'facts'. The above, for example, is an infographic. There are no details and no definitions of what are considered extremist acts or - or did you even notice they declined to use the term 'terrorist acts'? In fact, it doesn't even say extremist acts, it says 'extremist related violence'. What does that even mean?

Here is a list of the 'extremist related' killings from them. Most of them don't seem related to terrorism at all, but just personal ****, like a guy killing his relatives or a guy killing someone dating his ex or robbing someone or ordinary run of the mill violence like that. So if you're a general scumbag, robbed a store, and shot the clerk, you're not on the list, but if you're in some way related to one of these far-right groups and robbed a store and shot the clerk, you are.

https://www.adl.org/education/resources/reports/murder-and-extremism-in-the-united-states-in-2017#the-incidents
« Last Edit: January 22, 2018, 06:59:26 pm by SirJohn »
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline SirJohn

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Re: White Supremacy's Death Toll for 2017
« Reply #34 on: January 22, 2018, 06:57:36 pm »
Response by Right Wing Terror apologists on deaths due to right wing violence - "not very big numbers, nothing to worry about", while at the same time declaring the less than half as many killings as a huge threat by Muslims.

If you want to use the same terms and conditions used by that infographic towards 'extremist related' violence then you'll have to accept all similar violence committed by your beloved Muslims on equal terms. You cannot compare Muslim terrorist acts to 'extremist related violence' by whites They are simply not the same things.
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

guest4

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Re: White Supremacy's Death Toll for 2017
« Reply #35 on: January 22, 2018, 06:58:30 pm »
Ideology and Threat Assessment

Does ideology affect assessment of the threat of violent extremism? A survey of law enforcement agencies in the
United States in 2014 offers a comparison suggesting a small but statistically significant effect: Political attitudes were
correlated with assessment of threats posed by Muslim extremists, and threat assessment was not correlated with the
number of Muslim Americans who had engaged in violent extremism within the agency’s jurisdiction. By contrast, the
perceived threat of right-wing terrorism was correlated with the number of incidents of right-wing violence and not
with political attitudes. These findings reflect the context of growing polarization of attitudes toward Muslims in the
United States as well as the challenge of bringing counterterrorism policies into proportion with the actual scale of
violent extremism.


The article goes on to make these points:
- After 9/11, International Terrorism (aka Islamic Terrorism) was considered to be massive threat and experts claimed 100s of Al-Queda linked attacks were imminent. In actual fact, between 2003 and 2012, there were 40 prosecutions, most of them involving people trying to travel overseas.  Officials then claimed that the threat was not from 'oversees' after all, but an even larger threat was from homegrown terrorists, either acting alone or loosely affiliated.   Neither has that claim been substantiated either by the number of arrests or attacks carried out.

- In 2009, a department of Homeland Security identified right-wing terrorism as a growing threat; Conservative complaints resulted in the retraction of that report and that office was closed down. 

- Various tracking agencies show more right-wing attacks or plots than Muslim attacks or plots; overall, right-wing attacks have resulted in more deaths than Islamic attacks.

- At under 1%, Neither Islamic nor right-wing attacks or fatalities are a very large percentage of violence in America.

- Because of the similarities between Islamic attacks and right-wing attacks, they provide good contrast for comparing how ideologies are used to define threats.

- As political polarization has increased in the States, so has anti-Muslim sentiment and the perception of Islamic terrorism as a threat increased.

- This polarization and anti-Muslim sentiment coincided with a campaign to cast suspicion on to Muslims, and to paint Liberals as supporters of terrorism; the campaign was funded by conservative foundations and donors. 

- The campaign has been pretty successful; people are very concerned about Islamic terrorism, not very concerned about right-wing terrorism, even though the right-wing terrorism is more likely than Islamic terrorism.

- Over this time period, support for freedom of religion in the States has declined among both liberals and conservatives.  Freedom of religion used to be a bedrock of democracy and freedom.

I understand that this information will not change anyone's mind, and that's too bad.  We in the West are headed nowhere good, imo, but at least in 50 or 75 years, when some government is apologizing to Muslims for their over-zealous elimination of an Islamic non-threat, I will have been on the right side of the moral line. 

guest4

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Re: White Supremacy's Death Toll for 2017
« Reply #36 on: January 22, 2018, 07:03:46 pm »
If you want to use the same terms and conditions used by that infographic towards 'extremist related' violence then you'll have to accept all similar violence committed by your beloved Muslims on equal terms. You cannot compare Muslim terrorist acts to 'extremist related violence' by whites They are simply not the same things.

Well, perhaps when you admit that your beloved white-nationalists are equally a threat, in the US and Canada, as are Islamic extremists, we'll have something to talk about. 

Offline SirJohn

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Re: White Supremacy's Death Toll for 2017
« Reply #37 on: January 22, 2018, 07:13:18 pm »
Well, perhaps when you admit that your beloved white-nationalists are equally a threat, in the US and Canada, as are Islamic extremists, we'll have something to talk about.

As Goddess has pointed out in her cite, Muslim terrorists still killed more people in America than extremist Christian whites, despite the fact that Muslims make up under 1% of the population and Christians make up 70%. Which to anyone with knowledge of basic math suggest Muslims are over 70 times more likely to commit terrorist acts than Christians.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2018, 07:15:34 pm by SirJohn »
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline wilber

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Re: White Supremacy's Death Toll for 2017
« Reply #38 on: January 22, 2018, 07:37:59 pm »

The contention that it is 'western interference' is just the flatulence of Islamist apologists.

Well there has been precious little history of interference in western countries by non western cultures since before the colonial era (remember that) began but organizations like the IRA and Fenians had no issues with exporting terror outside Ireland as did the likes of Sikh terrorists who are also not Muslim.
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Offline Omni

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Re: White Supremacy's Death Toll for 2017
« Reply #39 on: January 22, 2018, 07:40:53 pm »
As Goddess has pointed out in her cite, Muslim terrorists still killed more people in America than extremist Christian whites, despite the fact that Muslims make up under 1% of the population and Christians make up 70%. Which to anyone with knowledge of basic math suggest Muslims are over 70 times more likely to commit terrorist acts than Christians.

Andrew Holt? come on now, he's as bad at jacking numbers around as you are. If not for 9-11 his claims fall apart. But I do understand that xenophobia tends to run deep.

Offline SirJohn

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Re: White Supremacy's Death Toll for 2017
« Reply #40 on: January 22, 2018, 07:47:25 pm »
Well there has been precious little history of interference in western countries by non western cultures since before the colonial era

When we got big and tough enough to fight off their attacks, you mean? Yes, unsurprisingly, when you grow to be the biggest kid on the block, the bullies seldom attack you.

Quote
(remember that) began but organizations like the IRA and Fenians had no issues with exporting terror outside Ireland as did the likes of Sikh terrorists who are also not Muslim.

The IRA was fighting against British domination of their homeland, and a far as I know didn't export terror outside Ireland - well, except to England, which made sense. The Fenians? Seriously? Whatever, they were also attacking the British who had taken over their homeland, and incidentally, treated them like dog meat there. Sikh terrorists aren't western based so no idea why that's even in there. They only exported terrorism against Indians anyway. That's why they didn't try to bomb Air Canada.

Western nations colonized most of the world. Most of the world is not attacking Westerners because of it. That includes Central/South America where the colonial hand of the US was very heavy indeed, and lingered well into the twentieth century. To blame western interference you have to explain why nobody else is producing these terrorist groups against the West. Africans have probably been damaged the most by colonialism and economic domination, and yet terrorism or even strong sentiment against westerners is absent outside Muslim states in the North. It's non-existent in Central and South America or in Asia, except where there are significant Muslim populations there, ie Indonesia/Malaysia/Philippines.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2018, 07:49:17 pm by SirJohn »
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline SirJohn

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Re: White Supremacy's Death Toll for 2017
« Reply #41 on: January 22, 2018, 07:50:57 pm »
Andrew Holt? come on now, he's as bad at jacking numbers around as you are. If not for 9-11 his claims fall apart. But I do understand that xenophobia tends to run deep.

You didn't even read the cite. He specifically outlines the case to be made with and without 9-11, and points out that the numbers of estimated Muslim terrorists are underreported, and gives very clear examples attesting to this. I guess the fact it had so much logic in it scared you away. Or maybe there were big words you found intimidating and didn't want to climb up the stairs to the living room and ask your mom about.
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline Omni

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Re: White Supremacy's Death Toll for 2017
« Reply #42 on: January 22, 2018, 07:53:34 pm »
When we got big and tough enough to fight off their attacks, you mean? Yes, unsurprisingly, when you grow to be the biggest kid on the block, the bullies seldom attack you.

The IRA was fighting against British domination of their homeland, and a far as I know didn't export terror outside Ireland - well, except to England, which made sense. The Fenians? Seriously? Whatever, they were also attacking the British who had taken over their homeland, and incidentally, treated them like dog meat there. Sikh terrorists aren't western based so no idea why that's even in there. They only exported terrorism against Indians anyway. That's why they didn't try to bomb Air Canada.

Western nations colonized most of the world. Most of the world is not attacking Westerners because of it. That includes Central/South America where the colonial hand of the US was very heavy indeed, and lingered well into the twentieth century. To blame western interference you have to explain why nobody else is producing these terrorist groups against the West. Africans have probably been damaged the most by colonialism and economic domination, and yet terrorism or even strong sentiment against westerners is absent outside Muslim states in the North. It's non-existent in Central and South America or in Asia, except where there are significant Muslim populations there, ie Indonesia/Malaysia/Philippines.

Maybe you forgot they did blow up a 747 with 268 Canadians aboard.

Offline Omni

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Re: White Supremacy's Death Toll for 2017
« Reply #43 on: January 22, 2018, 07:57:43 pm »
You didn't even read the cite. He specifically outlines the case to be made with and without 9-11, and points out that the numbers of estimated Muslim terrorists are underreported, and gives very clear examples attesting to this. I guess the fact it had so much logic in it scared you away. Or maybe there were big words you found intimidating and didn't want to climb up the stairs to the living room and ask your mom about.

Without 9-11 stats. his theory falls flat. Not to demean any of the lives lost in that incident, but it is after all one incident. One can play numbers to suit ones hypothesis however one wants. And I suspect it is more likely people who can't help but resort to insults whenever their story's get refuted who are likely living in mummy's basement. Your suppder should be ready soon though.

Offline bcsapper

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Re: White Supremacy's Death Toll for 2017
« Reply #44 on: January 22, 2018, 08:35:13 pm »
Tell me more about how worried you are about immigrants from "shithole" countries.

You wish.

Sorry I gave you a dumb for that post.  I did it by accident and I can't remove it.  I deleted my post when I tried.  So I'm repeating it here.

(I've asked a mod to remove the dumb)
Time for bed said Zebedee...