Author Topic: White Supremacy's Death Toll for 2017  (Read 1473 times)

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Offline Poonlight Graham

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Re: White Supremacy's Death Toll for 2017
« Reply #15 on: January 22, 2018, 12:54:29 pm »
"The child who is not embraced by the village will burn it down to feel its warmth"  - African proverb

Offline SirJohn

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Re: White Supremacy's Death Toll for 2017
« Reply #16 on: January 22, 2018, 02:35:15 pm »
The rise in white supremacist violence including anti-Muslim and anti-Semitic violence is very very worrisome.  Murders doubled in 2017 vs 2016, very bad.

From these #'s, it seems BLM aren't very violent, though they do say dumb things sometimes (as is everyone's right) but I still support their movement generally.

Antifa has violent elements within it but that hasn't resulted in deaths according to ADL which is good, so just riots, assault, vandalism, threats etc. aka a bunch of young punks.

The radicalization of our politics generally is a worrisome trend, with extremist elements committing more violence and murders.

I've looked at these numbers before and the thing which occurs to me is that most of them aren't the work of extremists, just violent losers. Ie, what I don't see are white supremacists setting up terror cells and setting off bombs or attacking people. What I do see are violent losers who happent to also be associated in some way with white supremacy, getting involved in violence on their own. Sometimes it's bank robbery, or anti-government or anti-police violence, or sometimes it's aimed at minorities. If they're not specifically doing it to advance some sort of white supremacist cause then I don't think it should be attributable to white supremacy. For example, this list on Slate, lists only three white supremacy killings last year.  http://www.slate.com/news-and-politics/2018/01/trump-impeachment-chances-stormy-daniels-ivanka-edition.html

I think the numbers are so small and by such disorganized individuals it's not really something to spend a lot of time worrying about. Oh, and btw, one complicating and interesting factum. Both Arabs and Hispanics have been, until very recently, lumped together with whites in the 'Caucasian' category in US Justice statistics.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2018, 02:42:58 pm by SirJohn »
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Offline SirJohn

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Re: White Supremacy's Death Toll for 2017
« Reply #17 on: January 22, 2018, 02:39:12 pm »
Not my fault officer, I robbed that bank because it had too much money.

It’s an interesting presentation but in no way does it try to rationalize killing people simply because they are different.

That's good. Because that would be dumb. What it did say was that bringing lots of outsiders alarms and provokes nationalists and incites hatred and racism towards them.
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline Omni

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Re: White Supremacy's Death Toll for 2017
« Reply #18 on: January 22, 2018, 03:19:45 pm »
I've looked at these numbers before and the thing which occurs to me is that most of them aren't the work of extremists, just violent losers. Ie, what I don't see are white supremacists setting up terror cells and setting off bombs or attacking people. What I do see are violent losers who happent to also be associated in some way with white supremacy, getting involved in violence on their own. Sometimes it's bank robbery, or anti-government or anti-police violence, or sometimes it's aimed at minorities. If they're not specifically doing it to advance some sort of white supremacist cause then I don't think it should be attributable to white supremacy. For example, this list on Slate, lists only three white supremacy killings last year.  http://www.slate.com/news-and-politics/2018/01/trump-impeachment-chances-stormy-daniels-ivanka-edition.html

I think the numbers are so small and by such disorganized individuals it's not really something to spend a lot of time worrying about. Oh, and btw, one complicating and interesting factum. Both Arabs and Hispanics have been, until very recently, lumped together with whites in the 'Caucasian' category in US Justice statistics.

I've listened to your comments when confronted with these facts before, and what occurs to me is that you continuously dance the funky chicken around them trying to heap as much blame as possible on your obvious pre-conceived target. Maybe the Fraser will have something for you.

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Re: White Supremacy's Death Toll for 2017
« Reply #19 on: January 22, 2018, 03:36:47 pm »
According to the infograhphic posted by MG, there were about 274 people killed by violent Right-Wingers, and about 100 people killed by violent Islamists in the US, between 2008 and 2017.

Response by Right Wing Terror apologists on deaths due to right wing violence - "not very big numbers, nothing to worry about", while at the same time declaring the less than half as many killings as a huge threat by Muslims.

When it's pointed out to the Right Wing Terror apologists that Islamic terrorists are driven, in part, by Western interference in their homelands, their response is "No it's not, they are just violent people".   At the same time, these right-wing violence apologists offer the influx of 'aliens' as justification for these violent right-wingers behavior.   





Online wilber

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Re: White Supremacy's Death Toll for 2017
« Reply #20 on: January 22, 2018, 03:37:42 pm »
That's good. Because that would be dumb. What it did say was that bringing lots of outsiders alarms and provokes nationalists and incites hatred and racism towards them.
No it doesn’t, they incite themselves. Enough of the blame the victims bullshit, they are solely responsible for the choices they make.
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Re: White Supremacy's Death Toll for 2017
« Reply #21 on: January 22, 2018, 03:43:06 pm »
That's good. Because that would be dumb. What it did say was that bringing lots of outsiders alarms and provokes nationalists and incites hatred and racism towards them.

But of course, the interference by Westerners in the homelands of Muslims has had absolutely no bearing on the increase in extremist violence against Westerners.   After all, it's only white/westerners who have the right to resent the imposition of 'other cultures' in their homeland, eh?



Online Goddess

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Re: White Supremacy's Death Toll for 2017
« Reply #22 on: January 22, 2018, 03:53:02 pm »
This claim that "Islamic terrorism is a non-issue" has been debunked by many.

https://www.thecollegefix.com/post/25885/

https://apholt.com/2016/01/11/right-wing-extremism-vs-islamic-extremism-in-the-united-states-a-look-at-the-numbers/

As former counter-terrorism analyst Daryl Johnson acknowledges:

“The U.S. government currently employs hundreds of analysts focused on Islamic extremism, but only a couple dozen who monitor domestic terror.”

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The lopsidedness of this report is also evident in the fact that, according to the article, it treats terrorists with an Islamist agenda as one dataset, and compares it to terrorists with a white supremacist agenda, terrorists with an anti-government agenda, and terrorist with a fundamentalist Christian agenda, by treating all three non-Islamic motivations as one dataset. This is not an apples to apples comparison. This is an apples to fruit bowl comparison.
But surely the most blatant and deliberate skewing of the numbers here is in the fact that the biggest terror attack in the history of the United States is discounted by beginning the tally on 12th September 2001. If one were to start the clock a day earlier and therefore include the approximately three thousand innocent lives taken on 9/11, then “there have been around 62 people killed in the United States by Islamic extremists for every one American killed by a right wing terrorist.”

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And disappointingly, I’ve noticed that some high profile secularists and liberal atheists also appear to have been taken in by this propaganda which contains a multitude of errors and inconsistencies resulting in inaccurate figures and starkly misleading conclusions. For instance; the MSNBC article referenced above was published in the summer of 2015. And whilst the information contained within it is frozen at this point in time, the source report that it cites is not. The report has since been updated, and so anyone citing the article now, is citing statistics that do not include the 49 Orlando clubbers murdered the following year by ISIS inspired gunman Omar Mateen in the deadliest mass shooting in American history. The updated statistics which now include this attack, along with other attacks in 2016, show that deaths from jihadist terror attacks in the U.S. are now almost double those attributable to far-right terrorists.
What’s more, this very same study that is routinely cited in order to downplay the threat of jihadism, shows not only that jihadists have claimed more fatalities in the U.S., but also that “most U.S. attacks are also carried out by individuals inspired by jihadism.”


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Asked whether he is concerned his colleagues or other experts may refute his analysis by calling it racist or discriminatory, Holt replied that while he sometimes worries about how his comments can be interpreted, he is not the only academic concerned with the claim right-wing extremism is more dangerous than radical Islam in the U.S.

“I have a number of academic colleagues with similar concerns when commenting on sensitive topics like the relationship of Islam to modern terrorism,” Holt told The Fix. “…Obviously, not all terrorists are Muslims, and I have known many Muslims whose views of Islam are compatible with western values. Moreover, the evidence shows that a majority of Muslims reject the methods of groups like the Islamic State and Al-Qaeda.”

“Yet to acknowledge that the Muslim world is particularly struggling with the issue of terrorism, on a much greater scale than adherents of any other religion, is not racist or discriminatory if it is based on the available evidence.”


« Last Edit: January 22, 2018, 04:05:01 pm by Goddess »
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Offline Omni

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Re: White Supremacy's Death Toll for 2017
« Reply #23 on: January 22, 2018, 03:55:44 pm »
According to the infograhphic posted by MG, there were about 274 people killed by violent Right-Wingers, and about 100 people killed by violent Islamists in the US, between 2008 and 2017.

Response by Right Wing Terror apologists on deaths due to right wing violence - "not very big numbers, nothing to worry about", while at the same time declaring the less than half as many killings as a huge threat by Muslims.

When it's pointed out to the Right Wing Terror apologists that Islamic terrorists are driven, in part, by Western interference in their homelands, their response is "No it's not, they are just violent people".   At the same time, these right-wing violence apologists offer the influx of 'aliens' as justification for these violent right-wingers behavior.

And if SJ is an example of those apologists, then it's likely no amount of factual evidence will ever sway them from their bias. We can hope I suppose.

guest4

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Re: White Supremacy's Death Toll for 2017
« Reply #24 on: January 22, 2018, 04:06:17 pm »
The rise in white supremacist violence including anti-Muslim and anti-Semitic violence is very very worrisome.  Murders doubled in 2017 vs 2016, very bad.

The radicalization of our politics generally is a worrisome trend, with extremist elements committing more violence and murders.

Well said.  Historically, humanity has recently enjoyed an extraordinarily peaceful existence worldwide; I'm not sure that's still true.   I am also concerned that it is going to get significantly worse before it gets better.  One would think that the ability to easily access information would promote thoughtful and honest discussion, but it seems not - instead, partisanship is followed by extremism and eventually violence.   

Hopefully I'm just feeling a more pessimistic than usual today and it's really just business as usual.

Offline Omni

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Re: White Supremacy's Death Toll for 2017
« Reply #25 on: January 22, 2018, 04:21:25 pm »
What concerns me a lot on this issue currently, is Trump. He is obviously a white supremacist, and the knuckle draggers who were already, and who love to follow his lead, I fear, are gearing up for more Charlottesville events as we speak. 

Online Goddess

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Re: White Supremacy's Death Toll for 2017
« Reply #26 on: January 22, 2018, 04:22:44 pm »
Another good article from Professor Holt, I believe he is from Alberta?  I'll have to double-check.

https://apholt.com/2016/04/05/anti-muslim-sentiment-in-the-united-states-my-two-cents/

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Offline Omni

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Re: White Supremacy's Death Toll for 2017
« Reply #27 on: January 22, 2018, 04:45:46 pm »
Another good article from Professor Holt, I believe he is from Alberta?  I'll have to double-check.

https://apholt.com/2016/04/05/anti-muslim-sentiment-in-the-united-states-my-two-cents/

He's from Florida and relies heavily on 9-11 to support his hyperbole.

Offline waldo

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Re: White Supremacy's Death Toll for 2017
« Reply #28 on: January 22, 2018, 04:50:32 pm »
As former counter-terrorism analyst Daryl Johnson acknowledges:

“The U.S. government currently employs hundreds of analysts focused on Islamic extremism, but only a couple dozen who monitor domestic terror.”

good on ya for highlighting this! However, you should more clearly emphasize the context in relation to Johnson's expressed concerns about domestic terrorism centered on right-wing extremist threats... Johnson, formerly the senior domestic terrorism analyst at the U.S. Department of Homeland Security, stated the imbalance is dangerous and argues the U.S. government needs to step up the monitoring of white nationalist websites, encourage communities to report people who advocate for white supremacist violence, and fund counter-messaging efforts to combat the white nationalist narrative in susceptible communities.

but again, good on ya for bringing this forward!
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Online Goddess

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Re: White Supremacy's Death Toll for 2017
« Reply #29 on: January 22, 2018, 05:37:32 pm »
He's from Florida and relies heavily on 9-11 to support his hyperbole.

I don't think you read the article because he specifically runs the numbers using 9/11 and not using 9/11.
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