Author Topic: What's wrong with U.S. foreign policy?  (Read 300 times)

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Offline wilber

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Re: What's wrong with U.S. foreign policy?
« Reply #15 on: June 12, 2019, 09:12:07 pm »
Congress hasn't declared war since 1942.

Just don’t call it a war and you are good.
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Offline SuperColinBlow

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Re: What's wrong with U.S. foreign policy?
« Reply #16 on: June 13, 2019, 11:36:22 am »
Police action, etc.

I seem to have been overruled on the bipolar disorder-nature of our foreign policy. But I must at this point state that we get into crap without an exit strategy. That's another thing. The USSR was in Afghanistan for 10 years. We've been in almost 20.
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Offline Poonlight Graham

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Re: What's wrong with U.S. foreign policy?
« Reply #17 on: June 16, 2019, 04:59:49 pm »
One of if not the biggest problem with US foreign policy is they're helping China become a super power that will in the longterm become far, far, more powerful economically, militarily, politically etc than the US.  The rise in GDP of China has been astronomical the last couple of the decades. 

If the Chinese can manage to obtain average incomes even half of that as the US or any other western country they would become far more powerful than the US or any other country.  A country with 1.3 billion people + dramatically fast-rising economy + brutal totalitarian government = big trouble for ALL OF US.  Canada should be very nervous.

The US is sowing the seeds of its own loss of dominance.  At least Trump is kind of standing up to China, though not sure how effective that's been, but it's better that Obama who never wanted to rock the boat with anyone, god bless him but he was just too nice.
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Offline Omni

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Re: What's wrong with U.S. foreign policy?
« Reply #18 on: June 16, 2019, 05:40:16 pm »
One of if not the biggest problem with US foreign policy is they're helping China become a super power that will in the longterm become far, far, more powerful economically, militarily, politically etc than the US.  The rise in GDP of China has been astronomical the last couple of the decades. 

If the Chinese can manage to obtain average incomes even half of that as the US or any other western country they would become far more powerful than the US or any other country.  A country with 1.3 billion people + dramatically fast-rising economy + brutal totalitarian government = big trouble for ALL OF US.  Canada should be very nervous.

The US is sowing the seeds of its own loss of dominance.  At least Trump is kind of standing up to China, though not sure how effective that's been, but it's better that Obama who never wanted to rock the boat with anyone, god bless him but he was just too nice.

Seems to me Trump's attempts to stand up to China amount to not much more than throwing around some tariffs and then sitting around while the markets crater. And then of course China responds in kind. Trump also gives people whiplash regularly when he does a complete about face on policies. Obama may have been "too nice" but things were a lot more stable domestically as well as internationally.

Offline Poonlight Graham

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Re: What's wrong with U.S. foreign policy?
« Reply #19 on: June 16, 2019, 06:11:40 pm »
Obama may have been "too nice" but things were a lot more stable domestically as well as internationally.

Domestically yes maybe although i wouldn't exactly call things stable under him as Americans became more and more divided under him (not as much as Trump though) and many of his poor actions/inactions  helped create the conditions for someone like Trump to become popular enough to get nominated & elected.  internationally I disagree.  I was just different kinds of instability.  Crimea, ISIS etc under Obama.  N.Korea and Russia were emboldened under Obama and caused instability too.  Not the most diplomatic or perfectly effective way, but I agree with Trump showing N. Korea who is boss.  Obama mostly just appeased everybody, he didn't use America power to force the hand of their rivals.  Iran might be an exception, but they weren't to be trusted anyways.

Obama was also all-around more satisfied with the status quo.  Not with everything of course, but he was basically Bill Clinton domestically and Jimmy Carter internationally (though not quite that bad).  If you rock the boat there's going to be more instability.  China needs to be put i its place, which which cause some instability.  Just as Canada has had to stand up to China and it's hurt us.

I'm not saying i agree with Trump's approach, but we need to stand up to China and not be satisfied with the status quo as we were under Obama/Bush Jr.  Even if Trump is an idiot I give him credit for trying.
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Offline Omni

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Re: What's wrong with U.S. foreign policy?
« Reply #20 on: June 16, 2019, 08:33:10 pm »
Domestically yes maybe although i wouldn't exactly call things stable under him as Americans became more and more divided under him (not as much as Trump though) and many of his poor actions/inactions  helped create the conditions for someone like Trump to become popular enough to get nominated & elected.  internationally I disagree.  I was just different kinds of instability.  Crimea, ISIS etc under Obama.  N.Korea and Russia were emboldened under Obama and caused instability too.  Not the most diplomatic or perfectly effective way, but I agree with Trump showing N. Korea who is boss.  Obama mostly just appeased everybody, he didn't use America power to force the hand of their rivals.  Iran might be an exception, but they weren't to be trusted anyways.

Obama was also all-around more satisfied with the status quo.  Not with everything of course, but he was basically Bill Clinton domestically and Jimmy Carter internationally (though not quite that bad).  If you rock the boat there's going to be more instability.  China needs to be put i its place, which which cause some instability.  Just as Canada has had to stand up to China and it's hurt us.

I'm not saying i agree with Trump's approach, but we need to stand up to China and not be satisfied with the status quo as we were under Obama/Bush Jr.  Even if Trump is an idiot I give him credit for trying.

Not sure how you would conclude Trump showed NK who is boss when stated he and Kim "fell in love" and then Kim basically thumbed his nose at him to end the last summit and US sat. pics show they are continuing construction on nuke manufacturing sites.
Obama bombed the hell out of ISIS and put the infrastructure in place for his successor to carry on with it.
What has Trump done about Crimea, especially when he stated publicly in Helsinki that he trusts Putin more than the US intelligence network?
Our latest snub of China we have suffered some blow back from was done at the behest of the US government by arresting the Chinese exec. and what the hell have the US done about it? Nada.
I would say Trump is himself too unstable to achieve any sort of stability, save for domestically among his mostly non-college educated base which don't seem to care about or understand details.   

Offline Poonlight Graham

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Re: What's wrong with U.S. foreign policy?
« Reply #21 on: June 16, 2019, 09:57:06 pm »
Not sure how you would conclude Trump showed NK who is boss when stated he and Kim "fell in love" and then Kim basically thumbed his nose at him to end the last summit and US sat. pics show they are continuing construction on nuke manufacturing sites.

We don't know how this will end.  We do know how it began.

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Obama bombed the hell out of ISIS and put the infrastructure in place for his successor to carry on with it.

Obama pulled US troops out of Iraq too quickly before Iraq was able to take over, creating the vacuum that helped let ISIS be created and take over the northern part of the country and launch attacks into Syria.
"The child who is not embraced by the village will burn it down to feel its warmth"  - African proverb

Offline Omni

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Re: What's wrong with U.S. foreign policy?
« Reply #22 on: June 16, 2019, 10:24:17 pm »
We don't know how this will end.  We do know how it began.

Obama pulled US troops out of Iraq too quickly before Iraq was able to take over, creating the vacuum that helped let ISIS be created and take over the northern part of the country and launch attacks into Syria.

Obama was criticized for being slow in gearing up to dealing with ISIS but he had things in place and was fiercly attacking ISIS on the ground and in the air well before Trump came to power. Trump simply stepped up the effort.

Offline waldo

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Re: What's wrong with U.S. foreign policy?
« Reply #23 on: June 17, 2019, 12:12:52 am »
Obama pulled US troops out of Iraq too quickly before Iraq was able to take over, creating the vacuum that helped let ISIS be created and take over the northern part of the country and launch attacks into Syria.

almost on par with Trump declaring, "Obama as the founder of ISIS"!

The ISIS Creation Myth

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By 2008, the surge and the Awakening—as the Iraqi effort is commonly known—had driven Al-Qaeda militants into neighboring Syria, quelling much of the violence in Iraq. Bush then negotiated an agreement, which was approved by the Iraqi parliament, giving U.S. forces permission to remain in the country until 2011, along with immunity from arrest and prosecution.

That approval proved temporary. As the U.S. prepared to send the bulk of its troops home, Obama began negotiating a similar accord. His goal was to leave behind 5,000 soldiers to train the Iraqis and help with counterterrorism. But the negotiations didn't go well. Not only did Muqtada al-Sadr, the fiercely anti-American Shiite cleric, threaten to unleash his militia on any remaining U.S. troops, but the new government of Iraqi Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki was forced to acknowledge that most Iraqis wanted the occupation to end.

"Having foreign troops in your country is…an unnatural act," says James Jeffrey, who served as Bush's deputy national security adviser and Obama's ambassador to Iraq. "Giving them legal immunity is...even more unnatural. Because Iraq was a now parliamentary democracy, this required parliamentary approval. And parliament was simply not willing to give it."

With time running out, Obama ended the negotiations. By the end of 2011, all American troops were out of Iraq, and the president ran for re-election partly on his pledge to end the Iraq War. Soon afterward, however, al-Maliki, a Shiite, launched a sectarian campaign against Iraqi Sunnis, arresting senior officials for treason, driving others into exile and upending the fragile sectarian balance the U.S. occupation had enforced.

Three years later, al-Maliki had so thoroughly alienated Sunnis that when ISIS fighters began to slip across the border from Syria, they found a receptive ear in some Sunni areas for their anti-Shiite beliefs. Last summer, when ISIS troops swept into the country's northwest, Iraqi soldiers ran away, and Sunnis greeted the militants with the traditional Arab gifts of rice and flowers.

Offline ?Impact

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Re: What's wrong with U.S. foreign policy?
« Reply #24 on: June 17, 2019, 11:58:21 am »
Obama mostly just appeased everybody, he didn't use America power to force the hand of their rivals.  Iran might be an exception, but they weren't to be trusted anyways.

I guess Libya never happened.

Offline Omni

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Re: What's wrong with U.S. foreign policy?
« Reply #25 on: June 17, 2019, 12:28:32 pm »
I guess Libya never happened.

What has me a little concerned at the moment with regard to potential near future foreign policy is what's happening with Iran. Pompeo said in an interview on Fox (where else) that he has "solid evidence" that Iran was behind the attacks on oil tankers in the Gulf of Oman, and that he is discussing various responses with Trump, including a military one. Hopefully there are some cooler heads behind the scenes.   

Offline Poonlight Graham

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Re: What's wrong with U.S. foreign policy?
« Reply #26 on: June 17, 2019, 01:17:41 pm »
Obama was criticized for being slow in gearing up to dealing with ISIS but he had things in place and was fiercly attacking ISIS on the ground and in the air well before Trump came to power. Trump simply stepped up the effort.

Yes he deserves good credit for essentially defeating them.
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Offline segnosaur

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Re: What's wrong with U.S. foreign policy?
« Reply #27 on: June 17, 2019, 02:04:10 pm »
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Obama mostly just appeased everybody, he didn't use America power to force the hand of their rivals.  Iran might be an exception, but they weren't to be trusted anyways.
I guess Libya never happened.
Minor point: While the U.S. was involved in the bombing campaign against Libya, a lot of the early pressure came from other countries (such as France).

Offline segnosaur

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Re: What's wrong with U.S. foreign policy?
« Reply #28 on: June 17, 2019, 02:23:34 pm »
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Domestically yes maybe although i wouldn't exactly call things stable under him as Americans became more and more divided under him (not as much as Trump though) and many of his poor actions/inactions  helped create the conditions for someone like Trump to become popular enough to get nominated & elected.  internationally I disagree.  I was just different kinds of instability.  Crimea, ISIS etc under Obama.  N.Korea and Russia were emboldened under Obama and caused instability too.
Domestically yes maybe although i wouldn't exactly call things stable under him as Americans became more and more divided under him (not as much as Trump though) and many of his poor actions/inactions  helped create the conditions for someone like Trump to become popular enough to get nominated & elected.  internationally I disagree.  I was just different kinds of instability.  Crimea, ISIS etc under Obama.  N.Korea and Russia were emboldened under Obama...
To be honest, I don't necessarily think Obama was to blame for those.

Crimea is far outside the American sphere of influence and its options for dealing with them were limited. ISIS did benefit from the withdrawl of American troops, but the withdrawal was following an agreement that had been made under Bush (and Iraq is an independent country; the U.S. can't unilaterally decide to station troops there.) North Korea has been a problem for pretty much every president. (After all, North Korea's first nuclear test was in 2006, when Bush was in power.)

It should also be pointed out that Obama's hands were often tied by congress, who took a very uncooperative stance over just about everything. For example, Obama wanted to take action against Russia over their election interference, but the Republicans in the senate would not support him.

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Not the most diplomatic or perfectly effective way, but I agree with Trump showing N. Korea who is boss.
Except of course he didn't.
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Obama mostly just appeased everybody, he didn't use America power to force the hand of their rivals.
He did greatly expand the use of Drone strikes.

And a failure to 'use American power to force the hand of their rivals' may not always be a good thing.

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I'm not saying i agree with Trump's approach, but we need to stand up to China and not be satisfied with the status quo as we were under Obama/Bush Jr.  Even if Trump is an idiot I give him credit for trying.
China is a significant trading partner, and engaging with China in the past has been beneficial.

On the other hand, Russia is not an ally, and directly interfered in the U.S. election. China may not necessarily be 'trustworthy' but they are not as detrimental as Russia. Yet Trump has taken every opportunity to suck up to Putin.

Offline SuperColinBlow

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Re: What's wrong with U.S. foreign policy?
« Reply #29 on: June 17, 2019, 08:01:33 pm »
Yes he deserves good credit for essentially defeating them.

I don't agree. Assad attacked his own people with chemical weapons, he announced Assad has "crossed the red line"; and apparently, there wasn't much on the other side of that red line. (e.g., they got away with more).

Then of course, it happened again under Trump whose initial position was "who cares" (until Hillary commented on his lack of response). Then he pulls us out of Syria, one of the things that apparently led to Mattis's resignation as SecDef.

See what I mean, now? It's like a game of ping pong. There's a tiny pocket of resistance left in Syria (to the government) and they're not going to last long. I wonder what the people of Syria think of our foreign policy now. Certainly THEY won't trust the Americans anymore.
« Last Edit: June 17, 2019, 08:05:23 pm by SuperColinBlow »
War is Peace
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