Author Topic: What's Stopping the 2nd US Civil War ?  (Read 1414 times)

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Offline Queefer Sutherland

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Re: What's Stopping the 2nd US Civil War ?
« Reply #30 on: August 29, 2017, 06:02:16 pm »
Why isn't the extreme left a reaction to the extreme right?  If the statistics demonstrate that RW ideology fuels 74% of terrorist activity and LW ideolgy fuels 2%, then who is reacting to whom?  When did the antifa grow enough to make the media?  It was when the alt-right decided Trump was their man (whether he is or not) and began promoting their racist agenda.  That, to me, looks like an extremist left wing respinse to an extremist right wing activity, not the other way around.

I think they're reactions to each other.  But I believe the phenomena has gone like this:  changes in demographics are fueling the rise in identity politics in the West.  There's also a clash of cultures from immigrants vs the status quo (mainly caucasians).  The status quo is being challenged by minorities, who believe the status quo is unequal/unfair to them, & they're also reacting to anti-immigrant & racist sentiment from the right.  The right is being reactionary to these demographic changes with suspicion, nationalism, & sometimes racism as they see the changes as a threat to their culture/way of life.  It's a power struggle.

This cultural demographic shift...I don't think we've seen such social changes in the West since the industrial revolution, which led to a deep polarization of politics as people tried to deal with the social changes and dueling ideologies of communism vs fascism & everything in-between.  The thing with far-left vs far-right economics is that you can usually compromise & reach a middle-ground on policy, unlike identity issues, as explained well by Fareed Zakaria:

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The dangerous aspect of this new form of politics is that identity does not lend itself easily to compromise. When the core divide was economic, you could split the difference. If one side wanted to spend $100 billion and the other wanted to spend zero, there was a number in between. The same is true with tax cuts and welfare policy. But if the core issues are about identity, culture and religion (think of abortion, gay rights, Confederate monuments, immigration, official languages), then compromise seems immoral. American politics is becoming more like Middle Eastern politics, where there is no middle ground between being Sunni or Shiite.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/we-dont-just-think-the-other-side-is-wrong-anymore--we-think-theyre-immoral/2017/06/15/f218c3e4-5207-11e7-be25-3a519335381c_story.html?utm_term=.61a54742cee7

Canada has seen what happens when cultures clash via identity politics, with Anglo Canada vs Quebec/francophones, as well as indigineous vs the rest of Canada.  In terms of Quebec, they have political power (natives have had much less power politically), & look at the problems the Quebec/french issue has led to throughout our history.  The current identity divide is only going to get worse over the decades as demographics continue to drastically shift, so I'm very worried about where it will lead.
"Nipples is one of the great minds of our time!" - Bubbermiley
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Offline Michael Hardner

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Re: What's Stopping the 2nd US Civil War ?
« Reply #31 on: August 29, 2017, 06:31:16 pm »

Canada has seen what happens when cultures clash via identity politics, with Anglo Canada vs Quebec/francophones, as well as indigineous vs the rest of Canada.  In terms of Quebec, they have political power (natives have had much less power politically), & look at the problems the Quebec/french issue has led to throughout our history.  The current identity divide is only going to get worse over the decades as demographics continue to drastically shift, so I'm very worried about where it will lead.

Interesting idea that I haven't considered: Canada has been living with culture clash over the past few decades.  Maybe that means we're leery of it. 

Will it get worse "over decades" in America ?  I think it will get worse in the short term and then there will be some kind of resolution. 

Offline Queefer Sutherland

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Re: What's Stopping the 2nd US Civil War ?
« Reply #32 on: August 29, 2017, 07:22:35 pm »
Will it get worse "over decades" in America ?  I think it will get worse in the short term and then there will be some kind of resolution.

It will get worse until white people come to grips with the fact that (unless birth rates increase substantially, which is very unlikely) caucasians will become an ethnic minority in the US by 2044.  Non-white babies are already the majority in the US.  I'm sure the #'s are similar if not higher in Canada.

http://www.npr.org/sections/ed/2016/07/01/484325664/babies-of-color-are-now-the-majority-census-says
https://www.bostonglobe.com/news/politics/2016/02/26/when-will-minorities-majority/9v5m1Jj8hdGcXvpXtbQT5I/story.html

Even if white nationalists wanted to stop immigration I can't think of a way it could happen without the US population shrinking.  Western countries are going to become a cosmopolitan-like mix of many different cultures/races, lots of inter-marrying etc.  It reminds me of Coruscant from the Star Wars prequels.  Maybe this is the start of the concept of "race" becoming irrelevant with this kind of globalization, races mix & in the long term most of us in the west will have light-brown skin.

Here's a very interesting convo.  Is this dichotomy the future of American politics?:
"Nipples is one of the great minds of our time!" - Bubbermiley
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Offline Michael Hardner

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Re: What's Stopping the 2nd US Civil War ?
« Reply #33 on: August 29, 2017, 07:39:29 pm »
It will get worse until white people come to grips with the fact that (unless birth rates increase substantially, which is very unlikely) caucasians will become an ethnic minority in the US by 2044. 

I think the 'issue' is beside the point.  People can get angry at any point in history... the 60s... the Rodney King riots.  Modes of communication have changed and to me that's the salient point from which all our recent changes begin.

Offline TimG

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Re: What's Stopping the 2nd US Civil War ?
« Reply #34 on: August 29, 2017, 07:47:45 pm »
Interesting idea that I haven't considered: Canada has been living with culture clash over the past few decades.
It is not the same. French and English Canada may not agree with each other and think the other is making unreasonable demands but at no time did either side view the other as fundamentally evil. That is the problem today. The left wing over the last 20 or so yours views right wing viewpoints as evil and can't compromise because of that. This is fueled a backlash on the right where moderates have been replaced by people who see the left as evil. I realize that this is likely the reverse of the situation in the 50s when communists were the bete noire of the right but I can only speak for what I have experienced.
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Offline Michael Hardner

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Re: What's Stopping the 2nd US Civil War ?
« Reply #35 on: August 29, 2017, 07:59:56 pm »
It is not the same. French and English Canada may not agree with each other and think the other is making unreasonable demands but at no time did either side view the other as fundamentally evil. That is the problem today.

Maybe so, but there is also conflict with first nations we've had to deal with.

I'm not interested in posts that say one side or the other is unreasonable and "has to change".   The US, at least, is past that point.  Both sides are entrenched.

Offline Omni

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Re: What's Stopping the 2nd US Civil War ?
« Reply #36 on: August 29, 2017, 08:07:28 pm »
It is not the same. French and English Canada may not agree with each other and think the other is making unreasonable demands but at no time did either side view the other as fundamentally evil. That is the problem today. The left wing over the last 20 or so yours views right wing viewpoints as evil and can't compromise because of that. This is fueled a backlash on the right where moderates have been replaced by people who see the left as evil. I realize that this is likely the reverse of the situation in the 50s when communists were the bete noire of the right but I can only speak for what I have experienced.

You seem to have the cart before the horse again. Over the last ~20 years the left have dragged the right, kicking and screaming at times, into the modern world, in large part by helping them throw off the shackles of religious doctrine that was discriminatory at best, cruel at worst.
And have you actually ever been in Quebec? Nowadays things are much better but when I went their to work initially Bill 101 was in effect.
I was not bilingual but they had to make exclusions to the bill to allow people like me in because they were short of people who did the type of work I do. I don't know if they thought I was "evil" but they didn't like it. Sorry to dispel your myth.

Offline Queefer Sutherland

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Re: What's Stopping the 2nd US Civil War ?
« Reply #37 on: August 29, 2017, 09:30:09 pm »
It is not the same. French and English Canada may not agree with each other and think the other is making unreasonable demands but at no time did either side view the other as fundamentally evil. That is the problem today.

Are you sure about that?  There was/is deep resentment by the French towards Anglo Canada, & vice versa (I grew up near Quebec in anglo country). There were FLQ terrorists in the 70's, angry enough to kill.  A province resentful enough to almost break away from Canada a few times. Quebecers have been threatened by a disappearing culture they cling dearly too, threatened by immigration & globalization (of capitalism etc) & the lower Quebec birthrates post-1960's.

Today there's a unique element to the "evil" dichotomy I agree, with the racist/homophobe/sexist labeling etc.  But what I've seen happen Quebec has similaries to what I see happening in US/rest of Canada -  cultures threatened by erosion/takeover from"the other".  Quebec nationalism vs white/western nationalism, similar to white British nationalism (Brexit etc).
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Offline BC_cheque

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Re: What's Stopping the 2nd US Civil War ?
« Reply #38 on: August 29, 2017, 10:56:39 pm »
I think they're reactions to each other.  But I believe the phenomena has gone like this:  changes in demographics are fueling the rise in identity politics in the West.  There's also a clash of cultures from immigrants vs the status quo (mainly caucasians).  The status quo is being challenged by minorities, who believe the status quo is unequal/unfair to them, & they're also reacting to anti-immigrant & racist sentiment from the right.  The right is being reactionary to these demographic changes with suspicion, nationalism, & sometimes racism as they see the changes as a threat to their culture/way of life.  It's a power struggle.

[...]

The current identity divide is only going to get worse over the decades as demographics continue to drastically shift, so I'm very worried about where it will lead.

I agree, and in a way I completely understand it.  Take away the violence and supremacy of the races, the alt-right actually has a compelling argument in my opinion about immigration and loss of culture.

I follow Stormfront and David Duke has a message on the opening page about the message being lost when nazi images are used and violence is used and he's absolutely right. 

It's similar to the argument you and I were making on the other thread about counter-protesters not resorting to violence because it does nothing but harm the message. 

Offline BC_cheque

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Re: What's Stopping the 2nd US Civil War ?
« Reply #39 on: August 29, 2017, 11:00:51 pm »
Police presence.

And what's not stopping it ?

Mutual animosity.
Dehumanization and delegitimization of the other side.
Growing culture gap with no common culture.
No leadership to bring peace once escalation starts.

Thoughts ?


Well, the biggest difference off the top of my head - money was a huge a motivation in the last one for the southern states.  This one is presently ideological but if livelihood was involved, maybe it could trigger the second one.

Offline TimG

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Re: What's Stopping the 2nd US Civil War ?
« Reply #40 on: August 29, 2017, 11:10:39 pm »
I'm not interested in posts that say one side or the other is unreasonable and "has to change".   The US, at least, is past that point.  Both sides are entrenched.
Both sides are entrenched. But it is left who still insists that they are fighting evil while the right generally views the left as self absorbed idiots. It is the left's view that make compromise impossible.
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Offline Omni

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Re: What's Stopping the 2nd US Civil War ?
« Reply #41 on: August 29, 2017, 11:22:08 pm »
Both sides are entrenched. But it is left who still insists that they are fighting evil while the right generally views the left as self absorbed idiots. It is the left's view that make compromise impossible.

"Self absorbed idiots" don't usually work to extend equal rights to people who are different than themselves, such as skin color, sexual orientation, religious beliefs etc. etc. The right should get their heads out of the sand.
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Re: What's Stopping the 2nd US Civil War ?
« Reply #42 on: August 29, 2017, 11:25:18 pm »
Both sides are entrenched. But it is left who still insists that they are fighting evil while the right generally views the left as self absorbed idiots. It is the left's view that make compromise impossible.
How is considering the left "self absorbed idiots" so conducive to conversation that the onus is on the left.to make that conversation happen?   


Offline Michael Hardner

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Re: What's Stopping the 2nd US Civil War ?
« Reply #43 on: August 30, 2017, 07:25:20 am »
Are people starting to see how a conflict would be difficult to de descalate?

Offline Peter F

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Re: What's Stopping the 2nd US Civil War ?
« Reply #44 on: August 30, 2017, 07:38:27 am »
Sure, these sort of things are always difficult to de-escalate. I think a more important question is why hasn't it escalated? What is stopping the various white nationalist/nationalist/patriot groups from taking up the arms they are proudly equipped with? They haven't opened up on the alt-left fascists when they could very well have. Somethings holding them back.  Fear perhaps?
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