Author Topic: What's Stopping the 2nd US Civil War ?  (Read 1413 times)

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Offline Omni

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Re: What's Stopping the 2nd US Civil War ?
« Reply #15 on: August 29, 2017, 01:25:52 pm »
So why is this any worse than Obama commuting Bradley Manning's sentence?

One need only understand the different nature of their offenses to figure that one out.

Offline TimG

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Re: What's Stopping the 2nd US Civil War ?
« Reply #16 on: August 29, 2017, 02:18:12 pm »
Manning committed a crime against the state, she wasn't using a position of authority to violate the rights of citizens based solely on their ethnicity.
Not a very compelling argument. Supporters of both argue they may have committed a crime but they promoted a worthy objective. The debates about relative worthiness is simply a partisan exercise where principles that support the partisan are arbitrarily claimed to be more important than arguments that undermine the partisan.

Offline wilber

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Re: What's Stopping the 2nd US Civil War ?
« Reply #17 on: August 29, 2017, 02:21:43 pm »
Not a very compelling argument. Supporters of both argue they may have committed a crime but they promoted a worthy objective. The debates about relative worthiness is simply a partisan exercise where principles that support the partisan are arbitrarily claimed to be more important than arguments that undermine the partisan.

Worthy objective? How would you like to live in a society where your were subject to arbitrary traffic stops just because you were white?
"Never trust a man without a single redeeming vice" WSC

Offline Omni

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Re: What's Stopping the 2nd US Civil War ?
« Reply #18 on: August 29, 2017, 02:25:27 pm »
Not a very compelling argument. Supporters of both argue they may have committed a crime but they promoted a worthy objective. The debates about relative worthiness is simply a partisan exercise where principles that support the partisan are arbitrarily claimed to be more important than arguments that undermine the partisan.

You call forcing prisoners to live in a tent city where temperatures ranged up to 135F, and cause a number of their deaths a "worthy objective"?
I call it at least manslaughter if not murder.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2017, 04:17:18 pm by jmt18325 »

Offline TimG

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Re: What's Stopping the 2nd US Civil War ?
« Reply #19 on: August 29, 2017, 02:34:09 pm »
Worthy objective? How would you like to live in a society where your were subject to arbitrary traffic stops just because you were white?
The worthy objective in this case is fighting illegal immigration. It is no less worthy than the arguments that Manning's leaks were a public service because people have a right to know what their government is doing. People defending Manning simply ignore the harms caused by leaks which are as severe as the harms caused by race based traffic stops.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2017, 02:38:24 pm by TimG »

Offline Omni

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Re: What's Stopping the 2nd US Civil War ?
« Reply #20 on: August 29, 2017, 02:41:47 pm »
The worthy objective in this case is fighting illegal immigration. It is no less worthy than the arguments that Manning's leaks were a public service because people have a right to know what their government is doing. People defending Manning simply ignore the harms caused by leaks which are as severe as the harms caused by race based traffic stops.

This list goes "a little" beyond fighting illegal immigration.
https://longreads.com/2017/08/28/the-collected-crimes-of-sheriff-joe-arpaio/

Offline segnosaur

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Re: What's Stopping the 2nd US Civil War ?
« Reply #21 on: August 29, 2017, 03:24:51 pm »
So why is this any worse than Obama commuting Bradley Manning's sentence?
Manning had already spent a significant time behind bars. And, as a transexual, their incarceration was a greater hardship for them than it would have been otherwise.

On the other hand, Arpaio will not be spending one day behind bars as a result of Trump's pardon.

Then there is also the nature of the offences... Manning did reveal state secrets, but Arpaio violated the constitutional rights of its citizens, and he did so from a position of authority.

Lastly, while Arpaio was "only" found guilty of contempt of court (for ignoring a court order), there have been a mountain of other transgressions... from keeping prisoners in inhumane conditions, failure in handling cases of sexual abuse, and misuse of government funds. (The government has had to pay millions because of lawsuits caused by Arpaio.) To a competent person, Arpaio's track record should have been enough to realize that he was not worthy of a pardon.

Offline wilber

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Re: What's Stopping the 2nd US Civil War ?
« Reply #22 on: August 29, 2017, 04:09:21 pm »
The worthy objective in this case is fighting illegal immigration. It is no less worthy than the arguments that Manning's leaks were a public service because people have a right to know what their government is doing. People defending Manning simply ignore the harms caused by leaks which are as severe as the harms caused by race based traffic stops.

So the means justifies the end, even if it means violating the rights of a whole ethnic group by targeting them with unlawful police action based solely on their race or ethnic origin. I'll ask you again. How would you feel about such treatment if it was directed at you?
"Never trust a man without a single redeeming vice" WSC

Offline TimG

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Re: What's Stopping the 2nd US Civil War ?
« Reply #23 on: August 29, 2017, 04:20:42 pm »
So the means justifies the end, even if it means violating the rights of a whole ethnic group by targeting them with unlawful police action based solely on their race or ethnic origin. I'll ask you again. How would you feel about such treatment if it was directed at you?
To be clear: Arpio deserves a lot more jail time than he got AND Manning should have served his/her/xer full sentence. My point is pardons are always politically motivated and granted to people who usually do not deserve one but are viewed favorably by the voters the president cares about.

Offline Omni

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Re: What's Stopping the 2nd US Civil War ?
« Reply #24 on: August 29, 2017, 04:29:43 pm »
To be clear: Arpio deserves a lot more jail time than he got AND Manning should have served his/her/xer full sentence. My point is pardons are always politically motivated and granted to people who usually do not deserve one but are viewed favorably by the voters the president cares about.
Arpaio didn't get any jail time. He hadn't been sentenced yet. But at least you seem to be coming around to the ideaf that what He did was in fact criminal. And disdainful IMO.

Offline wilber

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Re: What's Stopping the 2nd US Civil War ?
« Reply #25 on: August 29, 2017, 04:37:36 pm »
Manning had already spent a significant time behind bars. And, as a transexual, their incarceration was a greater hardship for them than it would have been otherwise.

On the other hand, Arpaio will not be spending one day behind bars as a result of Trump's pardon.

Then there is also the nature of the offences... Manning did reveal state secrets, but Arpaio violated the constitutional rights of its citizens, and he did so from a position of authority.

Lastly, while Arpaio was "only" found guilty of contempt of court (for ignoring a court order), there have been a mountain of other transgressions... from keeping prisoners in inhumane conditions, failure in handling cases of sexual abuse, and misuse of government funds. (The government has had to pay millions because of lawsuits caused by Arpaio.) To a competent person, Arpaio's track record should have been enough to realize that he was not worthy of a pardon.

Over 140 million so far. https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/critics-pardon-would-nix-chance-to-hold-arpaio-accountable/2017/08/22/a35a0de8-8755-11e7-96a7-d178cf3524eb_story.html?utm_term=.bdd145f2bc1f
« Last Edit: August 29, 2017, 04:48:26 pm by wilber »
"Never trust a man without a single redeeming vice" WSC

Offline segnosaur

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Re: What's Stopping the 2nd US Civil War ?
« Reply #26 on: August 29, 2017, 04:55:26 pm »
Quote
Manning committed a crime against the state, she wasn't using a position of authority to violate the rights of citizens based solely on their ethnicity.
Not a very compelling argument. Supporters of both argue they may have committed a crime but they promoted a worthy objective.
I think you missed some critical context in the previous poster's post...

Namely, that Arpio was:
- In a position of authority (i.e. in theory representing the government)
- Violated people's constitutional rights while acting in that position of authority
That means his crime should be considered differently from Manning, a person who:
- Was not in a position of authority
- Did not violate constitutional rights

Whether or not the people thought they were promoting a "worthy objective", the constitutional impact of Arpio's crimes and subsequent pardon make it a greater threat

Offline Michael Hardner

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Re: What's Stopping the 2nd US Civil War ?
« Reply #27 on: August 29, 2017, 05:23:57 pm »
It would be a short civil war. The Right has most of the guns. Most of the military and police are right wing as well. Not a lot of delicate, sensitive people willing to live in foxholes.

This seems to be at odds with your posts on Antifa.  Also, guns can be bought.

Offline Michael Hardner

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Re: What's Stopping the 2nd US Civil War ?
« Reply #28 on: August 29, 2017, 05:25:49 pm »
First of all you have to define what you mean by 'civil war'.

- Armed conflict between groups in different geographic regions (e.g. the first civil war)?

- All-out violence and anarchy, not between different geographic regions but within the same region)

- Civil disturbance and protests, some which may become violent, others which will be peaceful?

If you are simply talking about civil disturbance and protests, then you're not talking about a 2nd civil war,  you're talking about a 3rd, or 4th (since the civil rights protests in the 1960s would probably qualify as a "civil war")

True.  Maybe something between the 2nd and 3rd option.

Offline Michael Hardner

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Re: What's Stopping the 2nd US Civil War ?
« Reply #29 on: August 29, 2017, 05:27:52 pm »
Also - this has progressed into a discussion of a couple of other topics but I'm still interested in the question posted in the subject line.