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Author Topic: What's Stopping the 2nd US Civil War ?  (Read 1429 times)

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Offline Michael Hardner

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What's Stopping the 2nd US Civil War ?
« on: August 29, 2017, 05:59:18 am »
Police presence.

And what's not stopping it ?

Mutual animosity.
Dehumanization and delegitimization of the other side.
Growing culture gap with no common culture.
No leadership to bring peace once escalation starts.

Thoughts ?
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Offline Michael Hardner

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Re: What's Stopping the 2nd US Civil War ?
« Reply #1 on: August 29, 2017, 06:02:13 am »
Even then the left doesn't trust the police so the police presence is strictly "show of force" peacemaking.
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Re: What's Stopping the 2nd US Civil War ?
« Reply #2 on: August 29, 2017, 09:37:11 am »
What's stopping Trump from simply surrounding himself from like-minded people and deciding that Americans don't need to vote for their next president because he already knows who they want?   

I saw a posting on FB yesterday that Trump had removed limits to the types of army equipment police forces could obtain.  A heavily-armed police force and a megalomaniac for a leader - what could go wrong?

I don't know what would stop the US from a civil war, other than some sane republican taking charge and changing the message and dialogue from the right wing.   But a bigger worry to me is that this situation will extend to Canada.  We may be less shrill in our disagreements, but seems many of us are not any less stupidly partisan.   
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Offline TimG

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Re: What's Stopping the 2nd US Civil War ?
« Reply #3 on: August 29, 2017, 10:46:20 am »
Quote from: dia on August 29, 2017, 09:37:11 am
I don't know what would stop the US from a civil war, other than some sane republican taking charge and changing the message and dialogue from the right wing.
The Democrats could stop pandering identity politics and provide policies that are palatable to people outside of the big urban centers.

People seem to forget that the extreme right is a reaction to the extreme left. If talking heads of the left had not spent the last 20 years denigrating whites and Christians we would not be where we are today.
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Offline SirJohn

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Re: What's Stopping the 2nd US Civil War ?
« Reply #4 on: August 29, 2017, 10:47:48 am »
It would be a short civil war. The Right has most of the guns. Most of the military and police are right wing as well. Not a lot of delicate, sensitive people willing to live in foxholes.
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Offline SirJohn

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Re: What's Stopping the 2nd US Civil War ?
« Reply #5 on: August 29, 2017, 10:49:47 am »
Quote from: TimG on August 29, 2017, 10:46:20 am
The Democrats could stop pandering identity politics and provide policies that are palatable to people outside of the big urban centers.

People seem to forget that the extreme right is a reaction to the extreme left. If talking heads of the left had not spent the last 20 years denigrating whites and Christians we would not be where we are today.

Something I cited in the topic which evidently inspired MH to start this one.

There are two main theories of Trump’s support. One is that a large minority of Americans—40 per cent, give or take—are racist idiots. This theory is at least tacitly endorsed by the Democratic Party and the mainstream liberal media. The other is that a large majority of this large minority are good citizens with intelligible and legitimate opinions who so resent being regarded as racist idiots that they’ll back Trump almost regardless. They may not admire the man but he’s on their side, he vents their frustration, he afflicts the people who think so little of them—and that’s good enough.


http://nationalpost.com/opinion/clive-crook-why-reasonable-people-can-still-support-trump
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Offline wilber

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Re: What's Stopping the 2nd US Civil War ?
« Reply #6 on: August 29, 2017, 10:56:57 am »
In some ways the US hasn't moved passed the last civil war. If you go to Germany you can see many memorials, large and small, to victims of the Holocaust. The one in Berlin is Yuuge. How many memorials are there to the victims of slavery in the US, compared to those for people who fought to maintain it?
« Last Edit: August 29, 2017, 10:58:40 am by wilber »
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guest4

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Re: What's Stopping the 2nd US Civil War ?
« Reply #7 on: August 29, 2017, 10:59:56 am »
Quote from: TimG on August 29, 2017, 10:46:20 am
The Democrats could stop pandering identity politics and provide policies that are palatable to people outside of the big urban centers.

People seem to forget that the extreme right is a reaction to the extreme left. If talking heads of the left had not spent the last 20 years denigrating whites and Christians we would not be where we are today.

Why isn't the extreme left a reaction to the extreme right?  If the statistics demonstrate that RW ideology fuels 74% of terrorist activity and LW ideolgy fuels 2%, then who is reacting to whom?  When did the antifa grow enough to make the media?  It was when the alt-right decided Trump was their man (whether he is or not) and began promoting their racist agenda.  That, to me, looks like an extremist left wing respinse to an extremist right wing activity, not the other way around.
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Offline TimG

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Re: What's Stopping the 2nd US Civil War ?
« Reply #8 on: August 29, 2017, 11:25:18 am »
Quote from: dia on August 29, 2017, 10:59:56 am
Why isn't the extreme left a reaction to the extreme right?
The "extreme right" was non-existent 20 years ago. The endless denigration of right wing POV in the media has been constant over that period. The tendency of left wing people to call anyone they disagree with a racist has had the perverse effect of making the label meaningless to many people. i.e. people no longer care about being called a racist because it is impossible to have any opinion that does not conform to the extreme left POV without being called a racist. IMO, Trump's blatant racism was ignored by many simply because being called a racist by left wing media no longer had the power to repulse that it used to. The Charlotte incident blindsided a lot of right wing people because initially the claims of 'racists marching' were assumed to be the same left wing BS yet in this case we were talking about real racism and not people simply disagreeing with the left wing POV.

This should be a good example of why precision matters and using words in contexts where they do not apply (sexism/racism/genocide/etc) destroys the meaning of the word.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2017, 11:45:58 am by TimG »
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Offline segnosaur

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Re: What's Stopping the 2nd US Civil War ?
« Reply #9 on: August 29, 2017, 12:12:09 pm »
Quote from: TimG on August 29, 2017, 10:46:20 am
The Democrats could stop pandering identity politics and provide policies that are palatable to people outside of the big urban centers.
Here's the thing... in the last election, the Democrats did have policies that were palatible to the people outside the big urban centers. Unfortunately, a well thought out plan to (for example) help those affected by the collapse in the coal mines lost out to the baseless claim that "Trump would bring the coal mining jobs back". A well thought out plan to handle immigration lost out to chants of "build that wall".

Quote
People seem to forget that the extreme right is a reaction to the extreme left.
No, its not. There has been an uptick on extremest activity on the right, but that doesn't mean that the extreme right ever went away.

Quote
If talking heads of the left had not spent the last 20 years denigrating whites and Christians we would not be where we are today.
20 years ago, gay people couldn't be married in most of the U.S.. They couldn't serve openly in the military. Much of that was championed by the evangelical christian movement. In some areas black people were subject to "stop and frisk" laws. What you see as "denigrating whites and christians" could easily be seen as people asserting their natural rights to be treated as equal human beings.
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Offline segnosaur

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Re: What's Stopping the 2nd US Civil War ?
« Reply #10 on: August 29, 2017, 12:15:56 pm »
Quote
What's Stopping the 2nd US Civil War ?
First of all you have to define what you mean by 'civil war'.

- Armed conflict between groups in different geographic regions (e.g. the first civil war)?

- All-out violence and anarchy, not between different geographic regions but within the same region)

- Civil disturbance and protests, some which may become violent, others which will be peaceful?

If you are simply talking about civil disturbance and protests, then you're not talking about a 2nd civil war,  you're talking about a 3rd, or 4th (since the civil rights protests in the 1960s would probably qualify as a "civil war")
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Offline wilber

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Re: What's Stopping the 2nd US Civil War ?
« Reply #11 on: August 29, 2017, 12:23:23 pm »
Quote from: segnosaur on August 29, 2017, 12:12:09 pm

20 years ago, gay people couldn't be married in most of the U.S.. They couldn't serve openly in the military. Much of that was championed by the evangelical christian movement. In some areas black people were subject to "stop and frisk" laws. What you see as "denigrating whites and christians" could easily be seen as people asserting their natural rights to be treated as equal human beings.

Trump just commended and pardoned a guy who had his police stopping people for no other reason than they looked Hispanic. Even a third or fourth generation Hispanic American was subject to arbitrary stops merely because of their ethnicity. Not real Americans.  To quote Trevor Noah, "for a non racist, Trump sure has a lot of racist friends".
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Offline TimG

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Re: What's Stopping the 2nd US Civil War ?
« Reply #12 on: August 29, 2017, 12:41:50 pm »
Quote from: segnosaur on August 29, 2017, 12:12:09 pm
Here's the thing... in the last election, the Democrats did have policies that were palatible to the people outside the big urban centers.
The policies were completely negated by the obsession with unfettered immigration and a clear to desire to screw over working class Americans by refusing to do anything to stop illegal immigration (e.g. supporting sanctuary cities). You can argue that the blow back against these policies is extreme at times but there would be no blow back if the democrats had taken a reasonable approach.

Quote from: segnosaur on August 29, 2017, 12:12:09 pm
No, its not. There has been an uptick on extremest activity on the right, but that doesn't mean that the extreme right ever went away.
A better explanation is the media did not care about the extreme right. Now it has a Trump that it needs to bash it suddenly starts covering events that used to be ignored.

Quote from: segnosaur on August 29, 2017, 12:12:09 pm
20 years ago, gay people couldn't be married in most of the U.S.. They couldn't serve openly in the military. Much of that was championed by the evangelical christian movement. In some areas black people were subject to "stop and frisk" laws. What you see as "denigrating whites and christians" could easily be seen as people asserting their natural rights to be treated as equal human beings.
There are lots of ways to address injustices without denigrating people who do not see them as injustices. The tactic for the left has been if you think traditional marriage is important then you are a homophobe. If you think police should try to prevent crime you are a racist. 
« Last Edit: August 29, 2017, 12:49:42 pm by TimG »
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Offline TimG

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Re: What's Stopping the 2nd US Civil War ?
« Reply #13 on: August 29, 2017, 12:45:32 pm »
Quote from: wilber on August 29, 2017, 12:23:23 pm
Trump just commended and pardoned a guy who had his police stopping people for no other reason than they looked Hispanic. Even a third or fourth generation Hispanic American was subject to arbitrary stops merely because of their ethnicity. Not real Americans.  To quote Trevor Noah, "for a non racist, Trump sure has a lot of racist friends".
So why is this any worse than Obama commuting Bradley Manning's sentence?
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Offline wilber

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Re: What's Stopping the 2nd US Civil War ?
« Reply #14 on: August 29, 2017, 01:25:24 pm »
Quote from: TimG on August 29, 2017, 12:45:32 pm
So why is this any worse than Obama commuting Bradley Manning's sentence?

Manning committed a crime against the state, she wasn't using a position of authority to violate the rights of citizens based solely on their ethnicity.

Should she/he been pardoned? I don't know, depends on what you think is OK to leak to Wikileaks. Apparently a Secretary of State's emails are acceptable.
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