Author Topic: Trump Brings Home 2000 Troops!  (Read 249 times)

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Offline Montgomery

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Re: Trump Brings Home 2000 Troops!
« Reply #45 on: November 19, 2020, 01:12:09 pm »
No, it isn't.

Yes, it may sound like it "helps make the world peaceful" by withdrawing from places like Afghanistan. But the problem is, Afghanistan is still largely a basket case, and there is a very good chance that once the U.S. withdraws, groups like the Taliban might increase their efforts at taking over. (We've seen it before... withdrawing from parts of Syria increased conflicts between Turkey and the Kurds.)Errrr... not really.

Yes, you've stated several reasons why it's good news that the US is withdrawing from Afghanistan. All US withdrawals of military force is positive for the cause of world peace. And as for the Kurds? Crush them all under Turkey's tanks and the world will be a much better place.

Keep in mind that:
- Trump initially supported the Iraq invasion
- Under Trump, Drone strikes have greatly increased, and oversight has decreased.
- Trump's abandonment of elements of "soft power" (diplomacy, aid, etc.) means that in the long run, war becomes more likely

Why assume Biden is a "Hawk"? Under Obama, they weren't running around bombing everyone. And when they did use the military, it was often reactionary (such as in Libya, a military conflict that Trump also said he agreed with.) I see no reason why Biden would react any differently than Obama did.
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Let's set you straight now before you get too excited and misled. I'm not pro-Trump or anti-Trump, I'm anti-US wars and further aggression.
If Trump pulls out some troops from Afghanistan, Iraq, or Syria, it's a good thing. Even if the troops are just being relocated, as they have already stated.

My hunch is that Biden will be just as hawkish as any US president. Especially now that the US is going to be very hawkish against China for the purpose of preventing China from overtaking the US by peaceful means. Let's just hope that the M.A.D. factor continues to restrain the US for many more years to come.

Welcome to the discussion and try to keep it straight on what my priorities are here.
It was believed afterward that the man was a lunatic, because there was no sense in what he said. ~M.T.

Offline Black Dog

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Re: Trump Brings Home 2000 Troops!
« Reply #46 on: November 19, 2020, 01:24:35 pm »
No, it isn't.

Yes, it may sound like it "helps make the world peaceful" by withdrawing from places like Afghanistan. But the problem is, Afghanistan is still largely a basket case, and there is a very good chance that once the U.S. withdraws, groups like the Taliban might increase their efforts at taking over. (We've seen it before... withdrawing from parts of Syria increased conflicts between Turkey and the Kurds.)Errrr... not really.

Keep in mind that:
- Trump initially supported the Iraq invasion
- Under Trump, Drone strikes have greatly increased, and oversight has decreased.
- Trump's abandonment of elements of "soft power" (diplomacy, aid, etc.) means that in the long run, war becomes more likely

Why assume Biden is a "Hawk"? Under Obama, they weren't running around bombing everyone. And when they did use the military, it was often reactionary (such as in Libya, a military conflict that Trump also said he agreed with.) I see no reason why Biden would react any differently than Obama did.

Huh? Obama averaged something like 70 drone strikes per year through his time in office. He also maintained their presence in Iraq and Afghanistan, went into Syria and Libya and extended the shadow war in places like Somalia and Yemen. Obama was a hawk because all US presidents are hawks by nature.

Offline Montgomery

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Re: Trump Brings Home 2000 Troops!
« Reply #47 on: November 19, 2020, 01:42:34 pm »
Huh? Obama averaged something like 70 drone strikes per year through his time in office. He also maintained their presence in Iraq and Afghanistan, went into Syria and Libya and extended the shadow war in places like Somalia and Yemen. Obama was a hawk because all US presidents are hawks by nature.

Exactly! So good to have a voice of reason here on this board, to help drown out the apologists who haven't yet come to be able to understand the evil that comes out of that country.
It was believed afterward that the man was a lunatic, because there was no sense in what he said. ~M.T.

Offline the_squid

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Re: Trump Brings Home 2000 Troops!
« Reply #48 on: November 19, 2020, 01:48:25 pm »
Exactly! So good to have a voice of reason here on this board, to help drown out the apologists who haven't yet come to be able to understand the evil that comes out of that country.

Iím still waiting to hear from you how America is invading China....   where?  When?  We want some facts please.

Offline Omni

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Re: Trump Brings Home 2000 Troops!
« Reply #49 on: November 19, 2020, 01:52:42 pm »
Iím still waiting to hear from you how America is invading China....   where?  When?  We want some facts please.

Right then, I'll put on the popcorn. ;)

Offline segnosaur

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Re: Trump Brings Home 2000 Troops!
« Reply #50 on: November 19, 2020, 03:43:06 pm »
Huh? Obama averaged something like 70 drone strikes per year through his time in office.
Yes, Obama used drone strikes. I never claimed he didn't. What I said was Trump greatly increased their usage and reduced oversight.

From: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-47480207
President Donald Trump has revoked a policy set by his predecessor requiring US intelligence officials to publish the number of civilians killed in drone strikes outside of war zones....There have been 2,243 drone strikes in the first two years of the Trump presidency, compared with 1,878 in Mr Obama's eight years in office...

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He also maintained their presence in Iraq and Afghanistan...
Yes, which is a good idea. When you have an unstable situation, the best solution is to stick around and make sure it doesn't get worse. Otherwise, you end up with situations like Turkey and the Kurds. Or Afghanistan post-Soviet withdrawl.

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went into Syria and Libya
Yes, Obama went into Libya. And you know who expressed support for attacking Libya? Stubby McBonespurs himself.

From: https://www.cnn.com/2016/05/25/politics/donald-trump-anaheim/index.html
in 2011 as secretary of state under President Barack Obama, Clinton forcefully argued in favor of military intervention to overthrow Libyan dictator Moammar Gadhafi. Trump, despite his repeated claims to the contrary, also supported both the Iraq War and the U.S.-involved military intervention in Libya those same years.

It should also be pointed out that the U.S. was not the aggressor in Libya. A civil war broke out (not directly caused by American actions), and other NATO countries were pushing for intervention to prevent attacks against civilians.

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...and extended the shadow war in places like Somalia and Yemen. Obama was a hawk because all US presidents are hawks by nature.
The world is a complex place... and the question of how to deal with various issues is not always clear.

But a 'hawk' is generally seen as someone who initiates wars that are typically unnecessary. (Such as Bush and Iraq.) A leader who uses military force either defensively and/or in an attempt to prevent civilian casualties (when there are no alternative actions) should not be considered a "hawk", but a leader who is willing to use tools that are available to him.
« Last Edit: November 19, 2020, 03:45:13 pm by segnosaur »

Offline Black Dog

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Re: Trump Brings Home 2000 Troops!
« Reply #51 on: November 19, 2020, 04:35:26 pm »
Quote
Yes, Obama used drone strikes. I never claimed he didn't. What I said was Trump greatly increased their usage and reduced oversight.

From: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-47480207
President Donald Trump has revoked a policy set by his predecessor requiring US intelligence officials to publish the number of civilians killed in drone strikes outside of war zones....There have been 2,243 drone strikes in the first two years of the Trump presidency, compared with 1,878 in Mr Obama's eight years in office...

Well, you specifically said "Under Obama, they weren't running around bombing everyone" which is demonstrably not the case.

Now I'm not arguing Trump is better in that respect, just that Obama sucked too and Biden is likely to continue those policies.

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Yes, which is a good idea. When you have an unstable situation, the best solution is to stick around and make sure it doesn't get worse. Otherwise, you end up with situations like Turkey and the Kurds. Or Afghanistan post-Soviet withdrawl.

What if the presence of those troops are contributing to the instability or, at best, not doing a damn thing to alleviate it?

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The world is a complex place... and the question of how to deal with various issues is not always clear.

But a 'hawk' is generally seen as someone who initiates wars that are typically unnecessary. (Such as Bush and Iraq.) A leader who uses military force either defensively and/or in an attempt to prevent civilian casualties (when there are no alternative actions) should not be considered a "hawk", but a leader who is willing to use tools that are available to him.

I think "continuing unnecessary wars or expanding conflicts into new theatres" would constitute hawk-ish behaviour, no?