Author Topic: Trump's Russian Provocateurs  (Read 1058 times)

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Offline Michael Hardner

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Re: Trump's Russian Provocateurs
« Reply #30 on: October 15, 2017, 07:41:24 am »
1. IF. I doubt that is the case. But it's not the Russian hackers that won the election for Trump. 

2. That's my hope anyways.

1. The election is a side-issue at this point.  The priority is trying to determine what is happening today.  Russians have been accused of posting as BLM and sowing racial disunity:

http://nypost.com/2017/10/12/russians-used-pokemon-go-to-stir-up-racial-tensions/

2. Mine too.  I see major problems with an unqualified populist, obviously, but also with a professional political class that doesn't speak to the people.  They should be using the web to bring politics back into people's lives, for those who are responsible enough and engaged enough to participate.

Offline gh0sthacked

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Re: Trump's Russian Provocateurs
« Reply #31 on: October 15, 2017, 12:58:06 pm »
1. The election is a side-issue at this point.  The priority is trying to determine what is happening today.  Russians have been accused of posting as BLM and sowing racial disunity:

http://nypost.com/2017/10/12/russians-used-pokemon-go-to-stir-up-racial-tensions/

2. Mine too.  I see major problems with an unqualified populist, obviously, but also with a professional political class that doesn't speak to the people.  They should be using the web to bring politics back into people's lives, for those who are responsible enough and engaged enough to participate.

The debates leading up to the election and Trump winning is how this all started, so it's front and center.

And as for #2 it seems to be talking more about police brutality than anything. It only slightly mentions Russia.  Terrible article.

Offline Michael Hardner

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Re: Trump's Russian Provocateurs
« Reply #32 on: October 15, 2017, 02:13:09 pm »
The debates leading up to the election and Trump winning is how this all started, so it's front and center.

My point is that this is an *ongoing* campaign to disunify.  So that's no longer a forensic investigation, but an urgent matter of democratic design.

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And as for #2 it seems to be talking more about police brutality than anything. It only slightly mentions Russia.  Terrible article.

Are you talking about the link.  The accusation is that Russia is continuing to sow disunity by posting BLM type postings on the web.
« Last Edit: October 15, 2017, 05:39:42 pm by JMT »

Offline gh0sthacked

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Re: Trump's Russian Provocateurs
« Reply #33 on: October 16, 2017, 10:32:52 am »
My point is that this is an *ongoing* campaign to disunify.  So that's no longer a forensic investigation, but an urgent matter of democratic design.

Are you talking about the link.  The accusation is that Russia is continuing to sow disunity by posting BLM type postings on the web.

The disunity has been happening for a long time in the USA. Blaming it on Russia is a non issue for me.

Hillary was non-electable. And Trump himself divided the GOP on his own as the GOP was not wanting to support him even though he was the only candidate to come out on top.

The division comes from within, not without in the USA.

Offline Michael Hardner

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Re: Trump's Russian Provocateurs
« Reply #34 on: October 16, 2017, 11:00:21 am »
The disunity has been happening for a long time in the USA. Blaming it on Russia is a non issue for me.

I didn't blame all past disunity on Russia, but have highlighted the fact that they're actively sowing disunity right now.

We already covered the election.

If you want to see the US torn apart then why not say so rather than not accepting the obvious ?

Offline SirJohn

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Re: Trump's Russian Provocateurs
« Reply #35 on: October 16, 2017, 11:21:17 am »
The disunity has been happening for a long time in the USA. Blaming it on Russia is a non issue for me.

Why is it a non-issue when it's clear they are acting to fan the flames of distrust and disunity? Canada has suffered from disunity for a long time too, would it be fine for you if the Russians were to do their best to fan those flames too?  Do we even know they're not doing this?
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Hillary was non-electable.

I didn't personally like Clinton or her identity politics, but she was massively more qualified than her opponent. Her many 'scandals' as you say were mostly nothing. I looked into them and didn't find anything substantive - as opposed to looking into Trump's past, which is a sewer.
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline gh0sthacked

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Re: Trump's Russian Provocateurs
« Reply #36 on: October 16, 2017, 01:25:14 pm »
Why is it a non-issue when it's clear they are acting to fan the flames of distrust and disunity? Canada has suffered from disunity for a long time too, would it be fine for you if the Russians were to do their best to fan those flames too?  Do we even know they're not doing this?

You would have to determine the amount of influence that actually took place. That will be hard to define with any accuracy.

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I didn't personally like Clinton or her identity politics, but she was massively more qualified than her opponent. Her many 'scandals' as you say were mostly nothing. I looked into them and didn't find anything substantive - as opposed to looking into Trump's past, which is a sewer.

Both were terrible candidates. I did not support either, but I wanted Trump to win just to see the train wreck and to see if the USA would actually wake up from the polarized politics which has been their problem way before the Russians even came into the picture regarding the latest election. IF anything the candidates themselves helped divide the nation even more with the continuation of the usless notion of 'left' or 'right'.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2016/oct/12/top-10-hillary-clinton-scandals-exposed-wikileaks/
Look harder.

The Russian bit is so minor compared to Clinton's screw up in Benghazi and Trump's 'grab er by the ****' comments.

Again, the USA cannot cry foul here because they have also been involved in hacking elections.  IF the USA did not go hacking foreign elections or even it's own citizens (NSA spy network) then you'd have something. The USA's problem is their own internal division that has been getting more divided as years go on.

Offline Michael Hardner

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Re: Trump's Russian Provocateurs
« Reply #37 on: October 16, 2017, 01:33:33 pm »
You would have to determine the amount of influence that actually took place. That will be hard to define with any accuracy.

Seems odd to assess the damage before deciding whether to do anything.  Is that what we're saying ?

Repeating that bit about the election is off-topic and lame.  The narrative that Clinton is evil is so naively biased now that I would be embarrassed to repeat it.  All of the things she was accused of and worse were done by Trump, his family/thugs, and the Russian mobsters and robots that supported him.

At this point, Canadians actually have to start standing up for the US as an ally and not shitting on them.  That includes NDPers and conspiracy types  too.

Offline gh0sthacked

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Re: Trump's Russian Provocateurs
« Reply #38 on: October 16, 2017, 03:01:59 pm »
Seems odd to assess the damage before deciding whether to do anything.  Is that what we're saying ?

How would you go about providing a solution without assessing the damage?

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Repeating that bit about the election is off-topic and lame.

It's not off topic or lame. You want to talk about Russian interference in the election, without talking about the election?  Really? Come on Mike.

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The narrative that Clinton is evil is so naively biased now that I would be embarrassed to repeat it.

I gave you an article about it, but that's just me being naive? 

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All of the things she was accused of and worse were done by Trump, his family/thugs, and the Russian mobsters and robots that supported him.

All you have is accusations without a lot of proof and with no prosecution of Trump OR his connections. That may change, but considering what Clinton has gotten away with, I don't see a lot of push back on Trump.

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At this point, Canadians actually have to start standing up for the US as an ally and not shitting on them.  That includes NDPers and conspiracy types  too.

Actually the US need to stand up for itself. I am not shitting on the USA, I am shitting on the shitty candidates and their shitty election process. You are viewing my criticism of the US as hate for them, which is wrong. 

Offline cybercoma

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Re: Trump's Russian Provocateurs
« Reply #39 on: October 16, 2017, 06:34:18 pm »
Both were terrible candidates.
You say that as if they were equally bad choices.

Offline gh0sthacked

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Re: Trump's Russian Provocateurs
« Reply #40 on: October 16, 2017, 06:57:11 pm »
You say that as if they were equally bad choices.

They were. Trump was simply the devil you did not know.
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Offline JMT

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Re: Trump's Russian Provocateurs
« Reply #41 on: October 16, 2017, 07:09:58 pm »
They were. Trump was simply the devil you did not know.


To say they were equally bad is a pretty poor argument.  Trump has made a mess of everything he's touched.

Offline Michael Hardner

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Re: Trump's Russian Provocateurs
« Reply #42 on: October 16, 2017, 07:35:43 pm »
How would you go about providing a solution without assessing the damage?

Ban bots completely ?


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It's not off topic or lame. You want to talk about Russian interference in the election, without talking about the election?  Really? Come on Mike.

Actually I DON'T WANT TO TALK ABOUT THE ELECTION.  I am talking about ongoing interference as I believe I have already said a few times.
 
 

Offline cybercoma

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Re: Trump's Russian Provocateurs
« Reply #43 on: October 16, 2017, 07:59:55 pm »
They were. Trump was simply the devil you did not know.
This position is just absurd to me.

Offline Michael Hardner

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Re: Trump's Russian Provocateurs
« Reply #44 on: October 16, 2017, 08:08:43 pm »
This position is just absurd to me.

Especially now. 

Emails ?  Trump's team was running private servers.  They were asking Russia for money, making deals with them.

Forget the crooked stuff and the hypocrisy.  Now look at the incompetence of the team, the complete incompetence by the leader, and his inability to run a team, to operate politically, to speak properly or deal with even his own party.

Nobody can reasonably say those choices were equal... to say so is effectively trolling.