Author Topic: Trump's "shithole countries"  (Read 1418 times)

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Offline SirJohn

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Re: Trump's "shithole countries"
« Reply #120 on: January 20, 2018, 03:07:26 pm »


You don't seem to understand that the so called "tribe" here was created by newcomers over many decades.

People create tribes out of whatever. Canada has existed long enough that those raised here would instinctively consider Canadians as their 'tribe'. How it was created is irrelevent. It's something Canadians - other than you - would have a profound attachment to and wish to preserve.

Your continuing obsession with the Fraser Institute, along with others bitching about them,  suggests its become something of a fixation in the minds of the SJW set - this evil place which says things which are forbiden! Heresy! Blasphemy! Burn them! Burn them!

Nothing on this discussion has remotely involved the Fraser Institute. You need to be sneering at Immigration Canada instead, for that was the only statistical study mentioned. Oh wait, there was also a CBC-Angus Reid study. You can sneer at them now. Or I could bring up PEW research so you can sneer at them I suppose...

« Last Edit: January 20, 2018, 03:28:20 pm by SirJohn »
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Offline SirJohn

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Re: Trump's "shithole countries"
« Reply #121 on: January 20, 2018, 03:27:56 pm »
The survey you initially posted is evidence.   It was sent to 'Canadians', including immigrants.  Presumably, 68% of the group of immigrants who responded agreed with the statement.

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Do you not think that if immigrants think they should fit in, then they are trying to 'fit in'?

We've been over this point before. I've shown evidence that the Muslim world's religious based culture/values have gotten much more medieval over the past twenty years, and thus the people coming here are more prone to those values.

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Two-thirds of Canadians think that immigrants are fitting in well enough.  I guess I'm not as out of the mainstream as you suggested.

Again, it's not broken down into locations. I'd personally like to know how you can say you think immigrants are fitting in and at the same time say immigrants need to do more to fit in.

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I think this is a valid point, and one which my sweetie (who sometimes agrees more with you than with me) were discussing just yesterday.  I believe we can agree that countries, cultures and societies evolve and change over time; it's shown throughout history.  In my opinion, it is the values of freedom, respect for the individual and the law that best defines Canada.  If those values are upheld by the majority of people who live here, regardless of the color of their skin, what they choose to wear or eat or where their family came from, then Canada as I know it will continue to exist.

And that is what I'm worried about. I wouldn't describe our values quite so simply, and I also have a respect for Canadian traditions, but my fear is the simple enormous number of newcomers combined with our low birth rate will make this culture change in the direction of THEIR cultures, and I consider their cultures grossly backward and violently intolerant of difference compared to ours.

But this discussion has veered away from the context of the 'shithole countries' topic. It is the economic basis of bringing in immigrants from impoverished, backward countries which was the point, not the cultural. The US is not threatened by a cultural tide coming from newcomers since they take in far fewer, as a percentage of their population than we do, and most of them are Christians from the Americas who will find it much easier to assimilate.
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

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Re: Trump's "shithole countries"
« Reply #122 on: January 20, 2018, 03:31:53 pm »
these things and based upon a sort of feel-good mentality that says all people are equal - which is also demonstrably wrong.

Wait.  If a Muslim says "Non-Muslims are inferior to Muslims", that's wrong according to you.  But if I say "I am not superior to Muslims", that's also wrong?   

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No, but you do support open immigration and oppose the screening most Canadians want.

1.  I do support screening; I don't support dumb-ass screening based on xenophobic fear.
2.  Not sure what you mean by open immigration: unfettered and uncontrolled?  Again, not true:  I *expect* we'll require immigration to maintain/grow our economic wealth.  I don't expect our government to deliberately bring in far too many people so that we have to set them up in tents and in huge communities.   I also expect our government to screen immigrants and refugees for suitability- which is what they do, as a matter of fact.

Notice I specified that I expect the government to limit how many immigrants/refugees they allow in and that they carry out screening for appropriate suitability.  I believe that is what has happened with this government, and with the last one and the one before that.   I don't believe *extra screening for values* is at all necessary.

However, I am also of the belief that climate change is a 'thing', and that climate refugees are in our future.  In that, I am concerned that we'll face the same problem that Europe faced with Syrian refugees - an overwhelming number able to walk across borders.   We are experiencing it in a small way with people coming over the border now to escape US Government policies.   And, though I don't blame you for missing it, I have said about that situation that these people should be discouraged from coming to Canada and sent back immediately when they cross the border.   


guest4

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Re: Trump's "shithole countries"
« Reply #123 on: January 20, 2018, 03:41:33 pm »
We've been over this point before. I've shown evidence that the Muslim world's religious based culture/values have gotten much more medieval over the past twenty years, and thus the people coming here are more prone to those values.
And what, exactly, has that to do with people coming here?  Have you shown any evidence that Muslims are breaking the law in Canada more than they have before?  Are they what - killing gays now, and they didn't before?  Are more Muslim women/girls dying at the hands of their husbands in Canada than they used to?  Where is your evidence that Muslims in Canada are behaving in a more "medieval" manner?   Because the point is that when immigrants come to a new country, they take on the values and mores of their host country, even if they keep some customs - such as dress, food or religion - of their home country.

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Again, it's not broken down into locations. I'd personally like to know how you can say you think immigrants are fitting in and at the same time say immigrants need to do more to fit in.

Read my post again:  That's what the survey you posted reports Canadians believe.

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And that is what I'm worried about. I wouldn't describe our values quite so simply, and I also have a respect for Canadian traditions, but my fear is the simple enormous number of newcomers combined with our low birth rate will make this culture change in the direction of THEIR cultures, and I consider their cultures grossly backward and violently intolerant of difference compared to ours.
That's a fear you have, which is fine.  I do not have that fear, so given this is an 'emotional' thing and not a factual thing, we're never going to agree.  Whichever of us is right, we'll never know though since the sea change, whatever it is, will occur well after we've passed on.

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But this discussion has veered away from the context of the 'shithole countries' topic. It is the economic basis of bringing in immigrants from impoverished, backward countries which was the point, not the cultural. The US is not threatened by a cultural tide coming from newcomers since they take in far fewer, as a percentage of their population than we do, and most of them are Christians from the Americas who will find it much easier to assimilate.
Really?  Christians from the Americas are a better bet than Muslims from the Middle East?   Funny that, since many of the Christian countries in South America are just as anti-woman and anti-gay as are Middle Eastern and African countries.  http://www.pewforum.org/2014/11/13/chapter-5-social-attitudes/

I will agree that they don't seem as militant about people following other religions as Muslims, though.

Offline Omni

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Re: Trump's "shithole countries"
« Reply #124 on: January 20, 2018, 03:50:52 pm »
People create tribes out of whatever. Canada has existed long enough that those raised here would instinctively consider Canadians as their 'tribe'. How it was created is irrelevent. It's something Canadians - other than you - would have a profound attachment to and wish to preserve.

Your continuing obsession with the Fraser Institute, along with others bitching about them,  suggests its become something of a fixation in the minds of the SJW set - this evil place which says things which are forbiden! Heresy! Blasphemy! Burn them! Burn them!

Nothing on this discussion has remotely involved the Fraser Institute. You need to be sneering at Immigration Canada instead, for that was the only statistical study mentioned. Oh wait, there was also a CBC-Angus Reid study. You can sneer at them now. Or I could bring up PEW research so you can sneer at them I suppose...

How our "tribe" was created may be irrelevant to you as it gets in the way of your xenophobic ideas, but not to most Canadians who actually know how the tribe was created and agree with our immigration policies in general. If we follow your lead we'll end up like Japan, a bunch of old fogies who all look the same, but can't figure out who's going to fund that OAP you rely on.

Offline SirJohn

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Re: Trump's "shithole countries"
« Reply #125 on: January 20, 2018, 04:21:50 pm »
Wait.  If a Muslim says "Non-Muslims are inferior to Muslims", that's wrong according to you.  But if I say "I am not superior to Muslims", that's also wrong? 

This is the same argument MH just tried, which implies that unless we accept the validity of all judgements then all judgement is wrong. It's illogical. Some judgements are correct and some are incorrect.

A person who feels that anyone who blasphemes against his god or his prophet or his religion must be executed is wrong. That is a judgement, true. That same person might say "well, it's my judgement that blasphemers must die". Does that mean we cannot make judgements at all? Because we do so a hundred times a day.

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1.  I do support screening; I don't support dumb-ass screening based on xenophobic fear.

You have expressed repeated, unalterable opposition to ANY screening for people's social and cultural views. Therefore, you do indeed welcome and embrace the wholesale immigration of people who hate Jews. By inference, you also support the wholesale immigration of people who believe women are subservient to men and can be beaten at will.

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In that, I am concerned that we'll face the same problem that Europe faced with Syrian refugees - an overwhelming number able to walk across borders.   We are experiencing it in a small way with people coming over the border now to escape US Government policies.   And, though I don't blame you for missing it, I have said about that situation that these people should be discouraged from coming to Canada and sent back immediately when they cross the border.   

Progressive politicians are incapable of making hard decisions which require the application of force. We saw Trudeaus' stupid ass pie in the sky desire to be the great white saviours in Africa. He was going to send troops there in his grand, noble way, until even his own people pointed out that such is the violence and extremism there our troops would have to fight and kill people just as they did in Afghanistan. So too are the progressive leaders of Europe incapable of doing anything which requires them actually stopping people from flooding into their countries, and this is without regard to what their own people want. This is why we see the rising of the far right and nationalis in Europe, because the Left an Center refuses to pay any attention to the wishes of the population with regard to defending borders. I think I posted a quote somwhere in the past about how the public will hire facists do what the liberals refuse to do.

To take it to extremes, if the EU had immediately deported everyone who got off a ship from North Africa and the middle east a couple of years ago, or even sunk some of their boats, the stream of people would have stopped, there wouldn't be a rise in nationalism, and the EU wouldn't be threatened with breakup. And if you want to be coldly logical about it, killing a couple of hundred people on purpose would have wound up saving the far greater numbers who have since drowned through mischance.

Trudeau can and is doing nothing whatsoever about the people crossing our border. Nor will he, regardless of how many cross. Trudeau is a globalist anyway. He doesn't care how many people come here.
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline SirJohn

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Re: Trump's "shithole countries"
« Reply #126 on: January 20, 2018, 04:33:40 pm »
And what, exactly, has that to do with people coming here?

This is again just rehashing old arguments. The people who come here from Pakistan or Afghanistan are not going to simply strip off their values at the border. They bring them in with them and, especially since they're reinforced by religion, by daily contact with their old country, and a steady stream of newcomers, retain them in ways people did not in generations past.

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Have you shown any evidence that Muslims are breaking the law in Canada more than they have before?

Where would that come from? You know, most of the gang violence in this city is by Muslims. Most of those killing and being killed are Muslims. There has not been one single word in the local media about that. Each shooting or murder is tsk-tsked at but no one in the media ever mentions that there is any commonality among them. Progressives simply don't do that. And Canada keeps no crime statistics based on race or religion because progressives won't stand for it.

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Because the point is that when immigrants come to a new country, they take on the values and mores of their host country, even if they keep some customs - such as dress, food or religion - of their home country.

Maybe, or maybe not, depending on the type of immigrants and what pressure is put on them to integrate. Angela Merkel, no less, she of the wide open arms, said that a few years ago that multiculturalism had been a complete disaster and failure, and that immigrants needed to integrate. That kind of suggests they hadn't done so, don't you think? The British and French said the same. Both have a major problem with immigrants failing to integrate. The Swedes are having one now too, where they find many Swedish born Muslim kids don't even speak Swedish amid rising crime and alienation.

And it's interesting that in all cases, the problem immigrants are Muslim.

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Funny that, since many of the Christian countries in South America are just as anti-woman and anti-gay as are Middle Eastern and African countries.  http://www.pewforum.org/2014/11/13/chapter-5-social-attitudes/

Sorry, but that's nonsense. What idiot would rather be a woman in Egypt or Iran instead of Argentina or Brazil? Is there a single Muslim country where women have the same rights, under the law, as men? Just because a survey said they value traditional views of family and are against abortion does not mean they have the same anti-women, anti-gay views as the middle east. They might be against gay marriage but they don't believe gays should be killed.
« Last Edit: January 20, 2018, 04:48:22 pm by SirJohn »
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline SirJohn

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Re: Trump's "shithole countries"
« Reply #127 on: January 20, 2018, 04:37:56 pm »
How our "tribe" was created may be irrelevant to you as it gets in the way of your xenophobic ideas, but not to most Canadians who actually know how the tribe was created and agree with our immigration policies in general. If we follow your lead we'll end up like Japan, a bunch of old fogies who all look the same, but can't figure out who's going to fund that OAP you rely on.

So letting in a bunch of goat herders who think toilets are magic fountains are going to fund OAP? You get that out of the Economics for Dumbfucks book?
Most Canadians have severe issues with immigration and with the amount of immigration and with the type of immigrants. But the progressive media keeps pumping out soothing messages about how immigration helps our economy and how it's needed to fund social programs and how it's needed to fill jobs. None of that is true. Nor have they ever bothered to even try to demonstrate it is.

"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline Omni

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Re: Trump's "shithole countries"
« Reply #128 on: January 20, 2018, 04:49:22 pm »
So letting in a bunch of goat herders who think toilets are magic fountains are going to fund OAP? You get that out of the Economics for Dumbfucks book?
Most Canadians have severe issues with immigration and with the amount of immigration and with the type of immigrants. But the progressive media keeps pumping out soothing messages about how immigration helps our economy and how it's needed to fund social programs and how it's needed to fill jobs. None of that is true. Nor have they ever bothered to even try to demonstrate it is.

Speaking of dumbfucks, perhaps you should study up on the actual stats as to how many children Canadians are having and how old we are getting, and how successful the majority of immigrants (economic) have contributed to the country so far. Maybe you need a herd of goats.

Offline Omni

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Re: Trump's "shithole countries"
« Reply #129 on: January 20, 2018, 04:56:48 pm »
While you're at it, keep in mind that counties such as Pakistan, Bangladesh, Indonesia, Turkey, Kosovo, Kirghistan, and Senegal have all elected women heads of state. Yep they're all Muslim counties. Numerous of which signed onto the U.N. Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Discrimination against Women, but then there was that one coutry that did not. Oh yeah, the United States.
 

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Re: Trump's "shithole countries"
« Reply #130 on: January 20, 2018, 06:27:22 pm »
While you're at it, keep in mind that counties such as Pakistan, Bangladesh, Indonesia, Turkey, Kosovo, Kirghistan, and Senegal have all elected women heads of state. Yep they're all Muslim counties. Numerous of which signed onto the U.N. Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Discrimination against Women, but then there was that one coutry that did not. Oh yeah, the United States.

Is it your contention then that women in Pakistan, Bangladesh, Indonesia, Turkey, Kosovo, Kirghistan, and Senegal have greater freedom than those in the United States?

Offline SirJohn

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Re: Trump's "shithole countries"
« Reply #131 on: January 20, 2018, 06:27:57 pm »
Is it your contention then that women in Pakistan, Bangladesh, Indonesia, Turkey, Kosovo, Kirghistan, and Senegal have greater freedom than those in the United States?

Clearly these are lands of great equality for women. Lands whose cultures we should dare to try to match.
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline SirJohn

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Re: Trump's "shithole countries"
« Reply #132 on: January 20, 2018, 06:29:25 pm »
Speaking of dumbfucks, perhaps you should study up on the actual stats as to how many children Canadians are having

If we feel Canadians aren't having enough babies then... here's an idea... put in place policies to try and encourage Canadians to have more babies. Is that too complex for you?

Because immigration is NOT gonna take care of that problem. Again, I have posted multiple reports to that affect. You cannot solve a declining birth rate with immigration.


"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

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Re: Trump's "shithole countries"
« Reply #133 on: January 20, 2018, 07:01:40 pm »
This is again just rehashing old arguments. The people who come here from Pakistan or Afghanistan are not going to simply strip off their values at the border. They bring them in with them and, especially since they're reinforced by religion, by daily contact with their old country, and a steady stream of newcomers, retain them in ways people did not in generations past.

You may be correct about that.  I'll have to investigate it more thoroughly some time.


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Where would that come from? You know, most of the gang violence in this city is by Muslims. Most of those killing and being killed are Muslims. There has not been one single word in the local media about that. Each shooting or murder is tsk-tsked at but no one in the media ever mentions that there is any commonality among them. Progressives simply don't do that. And Canada keeps no crime statistics based on race or religion because progressives won't stand for it.

I live in a different part of the country and I have said previously, and will repeat, that our news here does often mention the ethnic background of a person, using the words "Caucasian, Asian, South Asian, Middle Eastern".  Not on every news story, but probably about 50%.  Judging by that, most of the criminals are either Canadian or South Asian, with a few Asians and Middle Eastern types. I'm not going to contradict your claim about Ottawa, because I don't live there - but I do doubt your veracity because I know you make conclusions based on pictures rather than data.  I have previously provided data demonstrating that first generation immigrants are unusually law-abiding, second-generation immigrants not so much, and third generation immigrants match Canadian rates of criminal behavior.  Yes, you dismissed those studies, as you do with every study that does not agree with your viewpoint.   

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Maybe, or maybe not, depending on the type of immigrants and what pressure is put on them to integrate. Angela Merkel, no less, she of the wide open arms, said that a few years ago that multiculturalism had been a complete disaster and failure, and that immigrants needed to integrate. That kind of suggests they hadn't done so, don't you think? The British and French said the same. Both have a major problem with immigrants failing to integrate. The Swedes are having one now too, where they find many Swedish born Muslim kids don't even speak Swedish amid rising crime and alienation.

The factor you consistently fail to mention when you talk about this is that of marginalization and discrimination.   You refuse to even consider hiring someone who's name doesn't sound 'Canadian' or 'European' enough, then blame those same people for not meeting your economic goals for them.  Even among Canadians - such as oil workers - lack of economic stability and resources leads to violent behavior, as the city of Calgary reported when the oil industry tanked.   If  it's true that immigrants are more likely to engage in criminal behavior, then perhaps there are other reasons other than the simplistic notion "they brought that with them". 

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And it's interesting that in all cases, the problem immigrants are Muslim.

I'm calling bullshit on this, as I always do.  We are thousands of miles away, there is a concerted effort by anti-immigration right-wing types to make Muslims personna non-grata as much as possible.  While sensational media stories abound, experts who are looking at actual data tell a different story.   

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Sorry, but that's nonsense. What idiot would rather be a woman in Egypt or Iran instead of Argentina or Brazil? Is there a single Muslim country where women have the same rights, under the law, as men? Just because a survey said they value traditional views of family and are against abortion does not mean they have the same anti-women, anti-gay views as the middle east. They might be against gay marriage but they don't believe gays should be killed.

Funny how the  Pew survey about Muslims having anti-gay/pro-family values is your proof of how unsuitable Muslims are for Canada, but when it comes to the same attitudes in South American countries, you claim that's irrelevant.    Did you know that these same South American countries that have the high social disapproval of gays also have the highest rate of anti-gay crime of any country in the world?   Even though it's not illegal to be gay in most South American countries, a gay person is no safer than a gay person in the Middle Eastern countries you love to hate.   Perhaps even less safe.
https://www.lifegate.com/people/news/lgbt-rights-in-latin-america
http://www.cnn.com/2017/02/26/americas/lgbt-rights-in-the-americas/index.html

It's the same for the safety of women:  even though it's a "Christian" region, the 'pro-family' social values result in it being the most dangerous place for women in the world.
http://www.thehindubusinessline.com/news/world/latin-america-is-worlds-most-violent-region-for-women-un/article9970381.ece

So tell me again how the social values of immigrants from South America make them more acceptable than the people from the Middle East who hold similar social values, but are are less violent in imposing them?


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Re: Trump's "shithole countries"
« Reply #134 on: January 20, 2018, 07:23:24 pm »
If we feel Canadians aren't having enough babies then... here's an idea... put in place policies to try and encourage Canadians to have more babies. Is that too complex for you?

In recent years, the government has implemented a lot of baby-friendly initiatives, such as maternal/paternal leave, EI assistance for people taking leave and increased family bonus payments and efforts to reduce the ncome-risk women face when they take time off for baby making.  A lot of people disagree with those initiatives, believing them to put too much pressure on employers to pay for unproductive employees and create a heavier tax burden.  What solutions do you have?

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Because immigration is NOT gonna take care of that problem. Again, I have posted multiple reports to that affect. You cannot solve a declining birth rate with immigration.
I think you can; I also suspect succeeding generations will look less and less White and European.   Perhaps this means we agree:  we can't solve the issue of a declining White, European birth rate with immigration.