Author Topic: Trump's "shithole countries"  (Read 1417 times)

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Offline SirJohn

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Re: Trump's "shithole countries"
« Reply #30 on: January 16, 2018, 10:26:21 am »
As others have said repeatedly, the problem is less that Trump insulted the current state of Haiti and many other nations. It's that he views those people as undesirables because of the poverty in which they live.

Trump views anyone not rich as unimportant, but in terms of immigration, they ARE undesirables, not because of the poverty in which they live, but because of the likelihood that the majority, once in America or Canada, will wind up social welfare systems for quite some time, or at best take very low paying jobs for unskilled labour which, under our progressive tax system, do not wind up actually paying any taxes.

And, I might add, many of those low-skilled jobs are going to be disappearing over the coming decade, which leaves them doing what?

Immigration is not a world social welfare scheme to better the lives of foreigners. It's supposed to be only about improving life for the people HERE by bringing in really good, high quality (skilled and technologically capable) immigrants who will get good jobs and pay taxes.
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

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Re: Trump's "shithole countries"
« Reply #31 on: January 16, 2018, 11:04:57 am »
The KKK is very defiantly preoccupied with race and say so without hesitation. So your attempt at drawing a comparison is as ignorant as it is humourless and sanctimonious.
But they don't care about the skin colour. It's the cultural elements of the racial group that they are concerned with. When they talk about Black culture, aren't they just "stating facts?"

Offline SirJohn

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Re: Trump's "shithole countries"
« Reply #32 on: January 16, 2018, 12:05:45 pm »
But they don't care about the skin colour. It's the cultural elements of the racial group that they are concerned with. When they talk about Black culture, aren't they just "stating facts?"

Do they talk about culture? Evidently you spend a lot of time talking with the KKK. Perhaps you'd like to enlighten us on their philosophy?

Anyone stating facts, btw, is, as far as I'm concerned, simply stating facts. You evidently don't like facts, am I correct?
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline wilber

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Re: Trump's "shithole countries"
« Reply #33 on: January 16, 2018, 12:31:13 pm »
How about the facts in the LA Times link?
"Never trust a man without a single redeeming vice" WSC

guest18

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Re: Trump's "shithole countries"
« Reply #34 on: January 16, 2018, 12:32:48 pm »
Do they talk about culture? Evidently you spend a lot of time talking with the KKK. Perhaps you'd like to enlighten us on their philosophy?

Anyone stating facts, btw, is, as far as I'm concerned, simply stating facts. You evidently don't like facts, am I correct?
I'm having a hard time understanding how you distinguish the difference between race and culture. If someone is biased against a racial group, it doesn't seem likely it's an aesthetic bias against the shade of their skin. It's a bias against the way they live, speak, act, dress, and generally behave--that is, their culture.
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Offline Omni

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Re: Trump's "shithole countries"
« Reply #35 on: January 16, 2018, 01:11:44 pm »
Trump views anyone not rich as unimportant, but in terms of immigration, they ARE undesirables, not because of the poverty in which they live, but because of the likelihood that the majority, once in America or Canada, will wind up social welfare systems for quite some time, or at best take very low paying jobs for unskilled labour which, under our progressive tax system, do not wind up actually paying any taxes.

And, I might add, many of those low-skilled jobs are going to be disappearing over the coming decade, which leaves them doing what?

Immigration is not a world social welfare scheme to better the lives of foreigners. It's supposed to be only about improving life for the people HERE by bringing in really good, high quality (skilled and technologically capable) immigrants who will get good jobs and pay taxes.

How conveniently you change the whole concept of immigration, and how it has worked both in Canada and the US for all these years. I suggest you edify yourself by learning what is inscribed on the Statue of Liberty for starters.

Offline Robert

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Re: Trump's "shithole countries"
« Reply #36 on: January 16, 2018, 06:40:53 pm »
How conveniently you change the whole concept of immigration, and how it has worked both in Canada and the US for all these years. I suggest you edify yourself by learning what is inscribed on the Statue of Liberty for starters.

Yes the words inscribed on the statue of liberty are moving , from another time and place, today Canada has immigration preferences, people with money, education, certain skills ...unless your a refugee ....Do you think today's immigration  standards meet those words inscribed on that statue....

Offline Omni

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Re: Trump's "shithole countries"
« Reply #37 on: January 16, 2018, 07:44:16 pm »
Yes the words inscribed on the statue of liberty are moving , from another time and place, today Canada has immigration preferences, people with money, education, certain skills ...unless your a refugee ....Do you think today's immigration  standards meet those words inscribed on that statue....

I agree with our merit system and I also think there must be compassion for people who, through no fault of their own get the **** blown out of their country, Syria comes to mind. I suspect the system in the US will not respect the words on that statue if Trump gets his way.

Offline SirJohn

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Re: Trump's "shithole countries"
« Reply #38 on: January 16, 2018, 08:06:57 pm »
How conveniently you change the whole concept of immigration, and how it has worked both in Canada and the US for all these years. I suggest you edify yourself by learning what is inscribed on the Statue of Liberty for starters.

Uh... that IS the whole concept of immigration. Has been for many generations. Standards were pretty low in the distant past, I grant you. But in the distant past, as I have pointed out before, when you immigrated here it was sink or swim. You got no welfare, no pension, no health care, no language lessons, no housing. You came here, you worked, or you died. And we didn't give a damn which. Same way in New York, too. And as I've also pointed out, we didn't exactly need high standards given our technology level. All that has changed.
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline SirJohn

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Re: Trump's "shithole countries"
« Reply #39 on: January 16, 2018, 08:11:07 pm »
I agree with our merit system and I also think there must be compassion for people who, through no fault of their own get the **** blown out of their country, Syria comes to mind.

Why? There are MILLIONS of refugees from the wars. Can we take them all in? No. Can we take even a significant amount in? No. Taking in tens of thousands of them every year is merely a gesture, virtue signalling at enormous expense.

You talk about changing the concept of immigratoin. Our refugee system was designed in the cold war to take individuals who opposed, through peaceful means, autocratic government. It was not designed to bring in tens of thousands of people who are simply escaping war or poverty but who are in no way individually being persecuted by anyone.
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline Omni

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Re: Trump's "shithole countries"
« Reply #40 on: January 16, 2018, 08:20:29 pm »
Uh... that IS the whole concept of immigration. Has been for many generations. Standards were pretty low in the distant past, I grant you. But in the distant past, as I have pointed out before, when you immigrated here it was sink or swim. You got no welfare, no pension, no health care, no language lessons, no housing. You came here, you worked, or you died. And we didn't give a damn which. Same way in New York, too. And as I've also pointed out, we didn't exactly need high standards given our technology level. All that has changed.

And if you look at the stats you'll find that immigrants from Trump's so called shithole countries do as well or better than those from Norway, so the bigotry is unfounded

Offline SirJohn

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Re: Trump's "shithole countries"
« Reply #41 on: January 16, 2018, 08:30:41 pm »
And if you look at the stats you'll find that immigrants from Trump's so called shithole countries do as well or better than those from Norway, so the bigotry is unfounded

Uh, the stats don't say that at all. In fact, the stats, the only ones I'm aware of, which are the ones I've presented here, say the opposite.
There was a guy who posted some stats in the paper today who claimed Africans do better than Norwegians, but he didn't base that on any kind of economic evidence. I don't care if someone has a degree. If it's not respected here and his or her English is so bad nobody will hire him for a professional job anyway then he's unskilled labour.

"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline Omni

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Re: Trump's "shithole countries"
« Reply #42 on: January 16, 2018, 08:34:47 pm »
Why? There are MILLIONS of refugees from the wars. Can we take them all in? No. Can we take even a significant amount in? No. Taking in tens of thousands of them every year is merely a gesture, virtue signalling at enormous expense.

You talk about changing the concept of immigratoin. Our refugee system was designed in the cold war to take individuals who opposed, through peaceful means, autocratic government. It was not designed to bring in tens of thousands of people who are simply escaping war or poverty but who are in no way individually being persecuted by anyone.

Ah wrong again. The cold war started in 1947. Our refugee system began at least a century and a half before that. A number of the first ones were slaves from the US after the revolution. And of course we can't take all the current refugees from all wars in. Nobody says we should. The system has to be balanced but I wouldn't go hiding under my bed because some of the people are not white.

guest7

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Re: Trump's "shithole countries"
« Reply #43 on: January 16, 2018, 09:07:08 pm »
I'm having a hard time understanding how you distinguish the difference between race and culture. If someone is biased against a racial group, it doesn't seem likely it's an aesthetic bias against the shade of their skin. It's a bias against the way they live, speak, act, dress, and generally behave--that is, their culture.

It's easy to find cultural practices reprehensible.  Race doesn't enter into such things, except by association.  It would never occur to me to think a race of people all had the same cultural practices.
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Offline Omni

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Re: Trump's "shithole countries"
« Reply #44 on: January 16, 2018, 09:13:05 pm »
It's easy to find cultural practices reprehensible.  Race doesn't enter into such things, except by association.  It would never occur to me to think a race of people all had the same cultural practices.

If you ever have the chance to take a flight from say Dubai to Kabul you will witness a very strong example of just that.
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