Author Topic: The sad state of the (UN) United States  (Read 24058 times)

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Offline wilber

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Re: The sad state of the (UN) United States
« Reply #330 on: May 15, 2022, 11:33:36 pm »
Two of the better program managers I have worked with in IT had general arts degrees.  I don't understand who these people are who think a mechanical engineering degree is "smarter" than a history degree.

It isn't a question of smarter but what is more useful and likely to result in a contributing tax payer.
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Offline Squidward von Squidderson

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Re: The sad state of the (UN) United States
« Reply #331 on: May 16, 2022, 12:03:43 am »
I would hope so, we should only be subsidizing university degrees that are in demand by industry or needed by our society like doctors, nurses etc. While they may be worthwhile, anything else is a hobby as far as the tax payer is concerned.

We don’t need teachers?   Scientists?
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Offline BC_cheque

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Re: The sad state of the (UN) United States
« Reply #332 on: May 16, 2022, 12:06:07 am »
It isn't a question of smarter but what is more useful and likely to result in a contributing tax payer.

I don't really understand this actually because many professional designations aren't automatically recognized by their Canadian counterparts. So you could be a mechanical engineer but you might very well end up operating a Booster Juice once you get to Canada.

Offline Michael Hardner

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Re: The sad state of the (UN) United States
« Reply #333 on: May 16, 2022, 05:45:09 am »
Mechanical engineering degree > history degree.

Really tempting to dumb tag this.

With a history degree, you are required to analyze a complicated situation with a large number of factors and come up with your own assessment, then articulate it with support.

Mechanical engineering gives you templates to solve various problems that are specific to the manufacturing industry, and so much so that these can't be applied to other problems.

So much of what people are talking about, in this topic, is actually JOB TRAINING which you get from community college or a trade school.  IN both of the cases above, the person would have to get additional training.  But the history degree, if mastered, would provide better education for a career.

Offline Michael Hardner

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Re: The sad state of the (UN) United States
« Reply #334 on: May 16, 2022, 05:46:24 am »
It isn't a question of smarter but what is more useful and likely to result in a contributing tax payer.

Partly, in that one of the benefits of an educated population is well employed graduates.  But that is not the only benefit or we would just do job training.
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Offline Michael Hardner

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Re: The sad state of the (UN) United States
« Reply #335 on: May 16, 2022, 05:59:06 am »
I would hope so, we should only be subsidizing university degrees that are in demand by industry or needed by our society like doctors, nurses etc. While they may be worthwhile, anything else is a hobby as far as the tax payer is concerned.

If this were the case then mechanical engineering would be out of the picture. 

While I agree that universities should care about the needs of the marketplace, I think that the overemphasis on such comes from the declining middle class and THAT is not a problem for universities to solve.   ( And we do have 'trade schools' that cost a lot of money, receive government support and dump students out on to the marketplace that doesn't need them too. )

What they do care about is themselves, as a viable institution.  They care about making money, and getting high paying foreign students.  They care about new buildings, and prestige, and staying away from controversy.  Some of these things make sense but some don't.

What they SHOULD care about is education and making a smarter populace.   Canada is 10% ahead of the states in terms of post secondary attendance but it goes up to 12% when you go to the younger demographic.  In a complicated post-industrial world, this is a very good thing.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_tertiary_education_attainment

Offline Michael Hardner

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Re: The sad state of the (UN) United States
« Reply #336 on: May 16, 2022, 06:06:41 am »
And an increasing disparity in terms of earning power might be looked at differently.

I graduated in IT where there was a high "demand" for my services.  This was the case until the government changed the rules of the game to allow offshore to work in Canada and my earning potential dropped by 50% overnight.

The rules of supply and demand are not fixed in nature.  If we really want to create a middle class, we need to look at where the profits are going and what they are paying their workers.   The assumption that a business that makes a huge markup would leave Canada if they were forced to make less money makes no sense, if you realize that all of the multinationals operate profitably in socialist Scandanavia.


Offline wilber

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Re: The sad state of the (UN) United States
« Reply #337 on: May 16, 2022, 09:50:04 am »
We don’t need teachers?   Scientists?

We have an over trillion dollar federal debt and when you factor in provincial debt, our debt to GDP is well over 100%. All  I am saying is we can’t afford to subsidize everything equally and have to be selective in what we support. I am not saying other degrees have no value. We also have a real shortage of many trades and other skills. Not everything is about university.

Subsidies have always been selective and intended to have a targeted outcome. Governments are subsidizing EV’s because they want more of them on the roads. Why not subsidize all cars, they all do the same thing, move people and goods.

« Last Edit: May 16, 2022, 10:14:17 am by wilber »
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Offline Black Dog

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Re: The sad state of the (UN) United States
« Reply #338 on: May 16, 2022, 10:06:16 am »
Wait do people think the trades aren't already subsidized too?
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Offline Black Dog

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Re: The sad state of the (UN) United States
« Reply #339 on: May 16, 2022, 10:15:01 am »
Its also depressing to spend 4 years getting a history or philosophy degree and be almost as unemployable as when you started.

IMO for 90% of the population who aren't rich spending 4 years on a degree of little to no labour value is largely a waste of money and time that could have been almost equally served through 20 bucks in late fees at the local library.  Society can pay for libraries but not waste of time degrees.

It's weird people think that there are tons of people getting "waste of time" arts degrees when there are more business, management and public administration grads than the arts and humanities combined.

The top fields for grads are:

-Business, management and public administration
-Health and related fields
-Social and behavioural sciences and law
-Architecture, engineering and related technologies
« Last Edit: May 16, 2022, 11:27:49 am by Black Dog »

Offline segnosaur

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Re: The sad state of the (UN) United States
« Reply #340 on: May 16, 2022, 10:27:08 am »
With a history degree, you are required to analyze a complicated situation with a large number of factors and come up with your own assessment, then articulate it with support.

Mechanical engineering gives you templates to solve various problems that are specific to the manufacturing industry, and so much so that these can't be applied to other problems.
I think you are mischaracterizing what's involved in getting a degree...

Universities tend to require at least SOME diversity in their education, so even someone majoring in sciences will probably have at least some exposure to non-science courses. (The university I went to for computer science also required me to take 2 biology, 2 physics, 2 chemistry, and multiple social science courses, which in my case involved history, economics, and english.)

Secondly, even in courses that do focus on science, they often involve more than just "how to I solve this problem?" Students have to learn to communicate (through lab reports/presentations of their work), i.e. the type of thing you said history prepares you for.

Lastly, even when dealing with the technical aspects of science/engineering degrees... they are more than just narrowly focused "how do I fix this problem?" You still have to know how to analyze situations, perform risk assessments, etc. Things that are applicable outside of science courses. Any math courses you take will help in understanding things like economics. Any chemistry courses you take will help you understand issues with the environment and/or biology.
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So much of what people are talking about, in this topic, is actually JOB TRAINING which you get from community college or a trade school.  IN both of the cases above, the person would have to get additional training.  But the history degree, if mastered, would provide better education for a career.
Actually, a more accurate claim is that a history COULD provide a better education for a career.

But, you have to figure... what type of career are you talking about? There are very few history-specific jobs out there. So where else could you work? Anything having to do with manufacturing (e.g. car companies,  resource extraction, etc.) MIGHT like your ability to analyze/communicate, but they will also like the science/engineering guy's ability to better understand the technical side of things. Financial services companies (e.g. banks) might prefer someone with a business or economics degree.

The fact that many social science majors get jobs outside their field of study may have less to do with "My degree helped teach me skills that helped me in my new job" and more to do with "The employer just wanted SOME degree, and this is what I had".
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guest18

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Re: The sad state of the (UN) United States
« Reply #341 on: May 16, 2022, 10:59:38 am »
Ever wonder why the employer wants SOME degree?
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Offline Michael Hardner

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Re: The sad state of the (UN) United States
« Reply #342 on: May 16, 2022, 11:29:25 am »
@segnosaur good points

I will maintain that the engineering degrees I am familiar with have a narrower focus.

Offline Black Dog

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Re: The sad state of the (UN) United States
« Reply #343 on: May 16, 2022, 02:13:51 pm »
New immigrants per population was flat during the Harper years.  260k welcomed in 2014.  405k last year, and ever-rising.  Trudeau has increased it by over 50% and it was the plan all along:  https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/john-mccallum-substantially-increase-immigration-labour-shortages-1.3718831

What does any of that have to do with the Great Replacement Theory?

Offline Squidward von Squidderson

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Re: The sad state of the (UN) United States
« Reply #344 on: May 16, 2022, 02:16:38 pm »
What does any of that have to do with the Great Replacement Theory?

Conspiratard Graham has concerns with Canada’s whiteness being mixed with some different skin pigmentations, maybe?
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