Author Topic: The sad state of the (UN) United States  (Read 24127 times)

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Offline Michael Hardner

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Re: The sad state of the (UN) United States
« Reply #240 on: May 10, 2022, 12:59:18 pm »
1. You're talking about the country with the highest rate of incarceration in the entire world here man.

2. Also remember the right-wing concept of freedom is "you and I can do whatever I want."

3. Numbers don't matter, only power. The GOP understands that, which is why they work so hard to undermine free elections, redraw maps, appoint crooked and biased judges and obstruct the majority.
1. They still can't jail everyone.
2. I know that.
3. To achieve actual fascism they have to ACTUALLY seize communications, and not in the "I'm not allowed to say the n-word on Facebook" way.

Offline Black Dog

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Re: The sad state of the (UN) United States
« Reply #241 on: May 10, 2022, 01:17:39 pm »
1. They still can't jail everyone.
2. I know that.
3. To achieve actual fascism they have to ACTUALLY seize communications, and not in the "I'm not allowed to say the n-word on Facebook" way.

As I said: "It doesn't have to be full on Nazi Germany..."

I'm seeing something more like Orban's Hungary as the U.S.'s future.


Offline Queefer Sutherland

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Re: The sad state of the (UN) United States
« Reply #242 on: May 10, 2022, 01:40:16 pm »
1. Arguable but I will say the Democrats are not "imperfect" but "bad". 

2. Iterative improvements ?  Maybe.  I think that with problems this deep, a big change could happen quickly regardless.

I think the Democrats are bad, while the GOP are very, very bad.
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Offline Queefer Sutherland

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Re: The sad state of the (UN) United States
« Reply #243 on: May 10, 2022, 01:54:10 pm »
Really? Because I can quite easily. It doesn't have to be full on Nazi Germany, but countries slide into authoritarianism all the time, the U.S. isn't special. Its institutions are rotten, its political leadership sclerotic, its elites indifferent to anything but their own comfort. I don't think it will take a particularly hard shove to topple the edifice of it as a functional, pluralistic democracy.

I think civil war is likely if it ever goes that way.  And I think civil war is the only way it goes authoritarian.  Classic temporary emergency powers to "protect" the republic.

I can see the US becoming an illegitimate democracy, where the institutions break down.  Trump almost did it.  Then comes the civil war and sweeping emergency powers.  This is why I say destroying the SCOTUS by stacking the court is a terrible idea, it's one step closer to authoritarianism and civil war.  It's one of the dumbest ideas I've ever heard, and could lead to civil war.  The right wing fringe stormed the Capitol the last time they thought they got screwed over by the Democrats, and that wasn't even true.

But MH is right that the US also has a strong anti-government liberalism bent.
"Nipples is one of the great minds of our time!" - Bubbermiley
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Offline Black Dog

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Re: The sad state of the (UN) United States
« Reply #244 on: May 10, 2022, 02:38:50 pm »
I think civil war is likely if it ever goes that way.  And I think civil war is the only way it goes authoritarian.  Classic temporary emergency powers to "protect" the republic.

I don't think it will be that dramatic. It'll simply be a matter of the GOP declaring any future election loss null and void, the USSC rubber stamping that result and then the Republicans using their fake majority to ram through all kinds of measures to criminalize dissent.

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I can see the US becoming an illegitimate democracy, where the institutions break down.  Trump almost did it.  Then comes the civil war and sweeping emergency powers.  This is why I say destroying the SCOTUS by stacking the court is a terrible idea, it's one step closer to authoritarianism and civil war.  It's one of the dumbest ideas I've ever heard, and could lead to civil war.  The right wing fringe stormed the Capitol the last time they thought they got screwed over by the Democrats, and that wasn't even true.

Well the court is illegitimate, the deck is stacked against genuine democracy and the people most likely to instigate a violent uprising are the one's who are going to win without one.

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But MH is right that the US also has a strong anti-government liberalism bent.

Is there anything about the GOP today that screams "anti-government classical liberal" to you?

Offline Michael Hardner

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Re: The sad state of the (UN) United States
« Reply #245 on: May 10, 2022, 02:55:10 pm »
The other thing to consider here is that the worst offenders of the GOP are very old.

Conceivably, a generational change could happen very quickly and that includes policy changes.

Offline Black Dog

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Re: The sad state of the (UN) United States
« Reply #246 on: May 10, 2022, 03:01:41 pm »
The other thing to consider here is that the worst offenders of the GOP are very old.

Conceivably, a generational change could happen very quickly and that includes policy changes.

The younger GOP generation is the worst one. JD Vance is 37. Josh Hawley is 42. Tom Cotton is 44. DeSantis is 43. Tucker Carlson is 52.

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Offline segnosaur

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Re: The sad state of the (UN) United States
« Reply #247 on: May 10, 2022, 04:11:27 pm »
I can see the US becoming an illegitimate democracy, where the institutions break down.  Trump almost did it.  Then comes the civil war and sweeping emergency powers.  This is why I say destroying the SCOTUS by stacking the court is a terrible idea, it's one step closer to authoritarianism and civil war.
The current non-stacked Republican-heavy supreme court killed the voting rights act, allowing gerrymandering and curtailing the right of people to vote. It has also distorted campaign financing, thus leading to the wealthy "buying" elections. THAT is what is leading to authoritarianism. Not "Maybe we should increase the number of judges to make the courts more reflective of the population at large".

Your whole argument seems to be "let the U.S. become a fascist hell-hole because standing up to republican abuses would be bad".
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Offline Michael Hardner

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Re: The sad state of the (UN) United States
« Reply #248 on: May 10, 2022, 04:12:13 pm »
The younger GOP generation is the worst one. JD Vance is 37. Josh Hawley is 42. Tom Cotton is 44. DeSantis is 43. Tucker Carlson is 52.

https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2020/10/26/what-the-2020-electorate-looks-like-by-party-race-and-ethnicity-age-education-and-religion/

56% of older Americans lean Republican vs 50% Democrat



Offline segnosaur

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Re: The sad state of the (UN) United States
« Reply #249 on: May 10, 2022, 04:14:48 pm »
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The other thing to consider here is that the worst offenders of the GOP are very old.
The younger GOP generation is the worst one. JD Vance is 37. Josh Hawley is 42. Tom Cotton is 44. DeSantis is 43. Tucker Carlson is 52.
Yup. The republicans have gone from "We'll at least pay lip-service to fair play, even if we are going to end up playing dirty", to "Lets base our election strategy on calling brown people evil and suggesting democrats want to break into our homes and eat our children".

Offline Black Dog

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Re: The sad state of the (UN) United States
« Reply #250 on: May 10, 2022, 04:35:39 pm »
https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2020/10/26/what-the-2020-electorate-looks-like-by-party-race-and-ethnicity-age-education-and-religion/

56% of older Americans lean Republican vs 50% Democrat

So the Republicans have a healthy advantage among the population that actually votes.

Also "older" here means "50 and up" which is a big range and also not one that is going to go to its grave anytime soon, despite the best efforts of the party to kill its believers with COVID.

Offline segnosaur

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Re: The sad state of the (UN) United States
« Reply #251 on: May 10, 2022, 04:57:51 pm »
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The younger GOP generation is the worst one. JD Vance is 37. Josh Hawley is 42. Tom Cotton is 44. DeSantis is 43. Tucker Carlson is 52.
https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2020/10/26/what-the-2020-electorate-looks-like-by-party-race-and-ethnicity-age-education-and-religion/

56% of older Americans lean Republican vs 50% Democrat
I think the 2 of you are comparing 2 different things...

One is looking at the current and future crop of republican politicians (which indeed seems to be filled with crazies), the other is looking at the voters themselves.

Offline Black Dog

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Re: The sad state of the (UN) United States
« Reply #252 on: May 10, 2022, 05:10:51 pm »
I think the 2 of you are comparing 2 different things...

One is looking at the current and future crop of republican politicians (which indeed seems to be filled with crazies), the other is looking at the voters themselves.

There's a symbiotic relationship there (eg the politicians are crazy because the base rewards crazy). Regardless, I don't think it's particularly relevant.

Offline Queefer Sutherland

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Re: The sad state of the (UN) United States
« Reply #253 on: May 10, 2022, 11:28:04 pm »
Your whole argument seems to be "let the U.S. become a fascist hell-hole because standing up to republican abuses would be bad".

There's a difference between standing up to Republicans and stacking an entire branch of government for partisan reasons.  The GOP haven't done anything nearly that brash, with the exception of Jan 6 which failed.

Some interesting articles:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/monkey-cage/wp/2017/04/05/this-is-why-the-senate-is-at-a-nuclear-brink/

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/monkey-cage/wp/2018/06/29/it-took-conservatives-50-years-to-get-a-reliable-majority-on-the-supreme-court-here-are-3-reasons-why/

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Barring a last-minute intervention, Senate Republicans are poised to go nuclear Thursday. They say they will reinterpret the rules to empower a simple majority to cut off debate and confirm Neil Gorsuch, President Trump’s Supreme Court nominee.

Partisans disagree about who is to blame for bringing the Senate to the nuclear brink. Republicans fault Democrats for stoking the war by filibustering George W. Bush’s judicial nominees and going nuclear in 2013 over executive and lower court appointees. Democrats blame Republicans for their reflexive opposition to President Obama’s nominees, including the GOP’s unprecedented refusal to consider Obama’s Supreme Court nominee, Merrick Garland.

Arbitrating the blame game is difficult, not least because where politicians stand depends on where they sit — and they periodically change seats. So instead, let’s consider this week’s potential nuclear confrontation as the next step in the Senate’s decades-long, intensely partisan procedural warfare — a battle increasingly pitched over the judicial branch.
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Offline Queefer Sutherland

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Re: The sad state of the (UN) United States
« Reply #254 on: May 11, 2022, 12:14:16 am »
Mob justice is becoming more commonplace in the US.  When people lose faith in their institutions, they resort to violence.  This isn't good at all:  https://www.npr.org/2022/05/10/1097803459/supreme-court-roe-v-wade-abortion-access-protest-alito

Its also not good to see leaks from the SCOTUS.  Justices need to be free from public pressure on their decisions in order to remain impartial.  But that's been thrown out a long time ago.
"Nipples is one of the great minds of our time!" - Bubbermiley