Author Topic: The sad state of the (UN) United States  (Read 24100 times)

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Offline The Cynic

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Re: The sad state of the (UN) United States
« Reply #105 on: November 22, 2021, 07:22:15 pm »
I thought Wisconsin was a bastion of the conservative world. Its attitudes towards guns certainly seem to suggest it is.

Wisconsin has a Democratic governor and lieutenant governor, a Democratic attorney general and a secretary of state. One senator is a D and the other an R. It's a split state, not totally conservative. More importantly, Milwaukee is ruled by Democrats, both mayor and council. Milwaukee county's district attorney is also a Democrat. And it would be this office which decided things like bail and how hard to press charges against people like this - or whether to just let them walk.


Online Michael Hardner

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Re: The sad state of the (UN) United States
« Reply #106 on: November 22, 2021, 07:52:22 pm »
Wisconsin has a Democratic governor and lieutenant governor, a Democratic attorney general and a secretary of state. 

Are you sure none of these crimes were incurred under Republican jurisdictions?

Offline Black Dog

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Re: The sad state of the (UN) United States
« Reply #107 on: November 22, 2021, 07:53:53 pm »
The entire concept of race is stupid.  Yes I assume it was created by the right, or at least by racists.  We need to destroy the concept of race by treating everyone the same regardless of what they look like.

That's a nice fantasy but pretending race isn't a thing or that we're not living in a world where socially constructed racial differences resulted in different treatment of different groups isn't going to do anything but preserve the entrenched racial inequities in our society.

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Sometimes unfortunately the only way to cure a racist is to wait until they get old and die.

Racist people are vanishingly rare, thank goodness. Racist hierarchies and institutions are not.

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I don't think "white people" are the problem, which is what the woke say these days.  The problem is individuals who are racist. 


No, that's not it at all.

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Blaming the individual or policy or organization is a lot healthier than blaming an entire race, because this leads to racism towards white people, and many white people are naturally going to get their back up to these racial overgeneralizations and scapegoating and fight back in kind.  Most white people can get behind the idea of condemning individual white people who are racist, we had been doing that as a society since the 60's.  But when you say "white people are racist" instead of "this individual white person is racist for doing X" even a lot of the good white people get their feathers ruffled with that one, except those dripping in racial guilt for things that are the fault of others.

White people will get their back up whenever you point out that they continue to be the beneficiaries of structural racism. They take that **** real personally for some reason.

Offline Black Dog

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Re: The sad state of the (UN) United States
« Reply #108 on: November 22, 2021, 07:58:48 pm »
What? Every single time? Not that I've seen on youtube. All they seem to need to do is show up to have screeching mobs of ANTIFA and anarchist types like you descend on them. Frankly, I'd love to give all of them - and you - guns and then get the popcorn as you all kill each other.

I don't care what happened to your hero, or the other heroes of the ANTIFA the kid shot. Is that why you're so raging? Because he killed your best? The **** and the wife beater? I guess they represented the top minds of your movement. Certainly they had to have been smarter than you.

lick those boots harder why don't you.

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Don't pretend you have any commitment to human rights or democracy, you lying ****. We both know your kind is just as into the 'camps' as a solution to improper thinking as the fascists. Sure the Fascists did it, but let's not forget how your friends in China, Cambodia and Russia did the same. You all dream of a utopia where human behavior won't get in the way of your perfect vision, but not understanding humans and having no empathy you're willing to coldly destroy anyone who stands in your way. The far Left has butchered more people than the far-Right and are still at it. What's the worst Trump could do compared to what your fellow travelers in Venezuela and Nicaragua have done?

Hope you don't chafe your dick too much jerking it to this fantasy you've constructed in your pea brain. Is it that your life is so shitty that feeling like a victim is the only way you can make sense of your mediocrity?
« Last Edit: November 22, 2021, 08:12:29 pm by Black Dog »

Online Michael Hardner

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Re: The sad state of the (UN) United States
« Reply #109 on: November 22, 2021, 08:19:16 pm »
1. If it's somehow 'ad hominum' for me to choose a side then what about all the Black or gay or trans groups? Why are they allowed to choose a side and attack me?

2. The Conservative party in Canada is not conservative in any way, which is why it's falling apart.

3. And how is it you think my wanting a 'clampdown' on violent crime is somehow not centrist?

4. The policies on dealing with climate change are a farce and will accomplish nothing while wasting vast resources. And any party can support 'rights' but the trans activists are out of their minds and so are most of their supporters. It's one thing to demand they be treated legally, ie not beaten, not fired or evicted, etc., not expelled from restaurants or whatever, and another to demand they be inserted into women's sports, prisons and change rooms. Much less demand gay women and straight guys have sex with them because they're 'women' or else be called bigots. What a joke!

5. Of course, no one ever insults anyone here. LOL.  Odd how you only complain about it when I do it, Mr. Conservative.
1. It's not that you're choosing a side, it's that you're putting other people on a side and stating that because their side is "X" their viewpoint is invalid.  Yes, people are "allowed" to do this but it's poor debating form.

2. Ok, but you're "centrist" which means you're between the Conservatives and Liberals, right ?  Right ?

3.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centrism   A move to rebalance the social order around security and policing isn't even the far right Peoples' Party pushed for - https://www.peoplespartyofcanada.ca/platform

4. Yeah, you're right of conservative from your angry rhetoric.

5. I won't come and save you like a weeping damsel if Black Dog insults you.  But if you try it with me I will point it out and watch you stutter and justify it by bringing in imaginary platoons of blacks and gays who would insult you somehow.  Anyway, given your responses, I can come to two conclusions:

1) You understand now what ad hominem is
2) You aren't centrist at all

I also get that you are a "law and order" guy.  It's fine with me, especially if you're American. 

There was a BIG law and order push here in the 1990s, and premier Mike Harris set up work camps for young offenders.  It was a big bust and nobody talked about it again, and the law and order types weren't heard from for awhile.


Offline Queefer Sutherland

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Re: The sad state of the (UN) United States
« Reply #110 on: November 22, 2021, 08:31:58 pm »
That's a nice fantasy but pretending race isn't a thing or that we're not living in a world where socially constructed racial differences resulted in different treatment of different groups isn't going to do anything but preserve the entrenched racial inequities in our society.

We can't pretend racism doesn't exist.  But doubling down on race and racism by treating people differently based on their race is a flawed approach that increases racial resentment.  Should someone who gets a 1000 on their SATs be treated differently whether they're Asian vs black vs white? To say yes is nothing but racism.

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White people will get their back up whenever you point out that they continue to be the beneficiaries of structural racism. They take that **** real personally for some reason.

Some if not many white people do yes.  But there's much more to it than that.  We shouldn't be demonizing entire races of people.  This is racism, and many woke people do it all the time these days.  Every time they do it makes Trumps's re-election more likely
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Offline Queefer Sutherland

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Re: The sad state of the (UN) United States
« Reply #111 on: November 22, 2021, 08:51:54 pm »
2. Haha.  I'm actually pretty conservative.  Some might say 'a centrist'.  If you're allowed to advocate for clampdowns and call yourself centrist, don't you think it's reasonable for me to advocate for policies advocated by the Conservative Party and call myself 'centrist' ?  The Conservative party has a policy to deal with climate change, and supports rights for trans a gay people.

Socially you're not a centrist.  You're as maintstream progressive as they come.  I can't name one position where you go against the mainstream progressive view.  When I challenge such views you often challenge me on it.
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Online Michael Hardner

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Re: The sad state of the (UN) United States
« Reply #112 on: November 22, 2021, 09:00:42 pm »
Socially you're not a centrist.  You're as maintstream progressive as they come.  I can't name one position where you go against the mainstream progressive view.  When I challenge such views you often challenge me on it.

Ok fair enough... but "mainstream progressive... isn't extreme right ?  I think I am happy with all current legislation, which has been submitted by Liberal and Conservative governments.  So given the mainstream status of those institutions how extreme can I really be hm ?

Offline Queefer Sutherland

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Re: The sad state of the (UN) United States
« Reply #113 on: November 22, 2021, 09:23:49 pm »
Ok fair enough... but "mainstream progressive... isn't extreme right ?  I think I am happy with all current legislation, which has been submitted by Liberal and Conservative governments.  So given the mainstream status of those institutions how extreme can I really be hm ?

I'd definitely say you're not extreme.
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Online Michael Hardner

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Re: The sad state of the (UN) United States
« Reply #114 on: November 22, 2021, 10:03:42 pm »
I'd definitely say you're not extreme.

Also, I am often reluctant to wade into rights discussions.

You'll find I wade in to criticize arguments and logic, and pleading for defined lines of discussion.

Offline Black Dog

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Re: The sad state of the (UN) United States
« Reply #115 on: November 22, 2021, 10:40:43 pm »
We can't pretend racism doesn't exist.  But doubling down on race and racism by treating people differently based on their race is a flawed approach that increases racial resentment.  Should someone who gets a 1000 on their SATs be treated differently whether they're Asian vs black vs white? To say yes is nothing but racism.

So your idea is that if some groups are lagging behind because of past injustices, we shouldn't do anything to give those groups a leg up at this point? Like "sorry your ancestors were slaves, your grandparents lived under Jim Crow and you live in generational poverty as a result, but we have to treat you the same as a rich white kid or they'll be sad."

That being said, I'm all for class-based solutions for elevating people, but the same people who oppose wokeness and affirmative action hate those too.

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Some if not many white people do yes.  But there's much more to it than that.  We shouldn't be demonizing entire races of people.  This is racism, and many woke people do it all the time these days. 

"Many"? How many? I guarantee that the number of woke people who think whites are the devil or whatever weird caricature of woke beliefs you have in mind pales to insignificance to the number of people who think blacks are intrinsically lazy and prone to criminality (and this includes people with actual institutional power and influence, not a few purveyors of doofy EDI trainings or profs from obscure colleges).

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Every time they do it makes Trumps's re-election more likely

Right because white people apparently have no agency and can only respond to being accused of racism by actually becoming racist.

Offline Queefer Sutherland

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Re: The sad state of the (UN) United States
« Reply #116 on: November 23, 2021, 12:03:43 am »
So your idea is that if some groups are lagging behind because of past injustices, we shouldn't do anything to give those groups a leg up at this point? Like "sorry your ancestors were slaves, your grandparents lived under Jim Crow and you live in generational poverty as a result, but we have to treat you the same as a rich white kid or they'll be sad."

That being said, I'm all for class-based solutions for elevating people, but the same people who oppose wokeness and affirmative action hate those too.

I don't think we should typically help people based on race, but on need.  If you're poor we should help you, regardless of race.  If you need help with healthcare, social services, tuition, etc. we should help you regardless of race.  If you live in a poor community and your school or certain individual kids in those schools need support and funding let's help them and fund their support, regardless of race.

You could make a special case for aboriginal communities being treated differently since it's a special case and many of them live on reserves and there's a lot of unique legal and historical issues there.  But you could also help them because the individuals in those communities need help more than most Canadians and have some of the lowest socioeconomic outcomes, rather than simply through some sense of colonial guilt.  Personally it doesn't matter to me what culture/race you are, if you're hurting and you need help we should help you because it's the human thing to do, whether you're "white trash" or live on a reserve.

Meanwhile, we need to keep reminding each other that we should all be judged as individuals based on our own actions, merit, character rather than prejudging each other based on the racial group we belong to and stop discriminating against others based on those racial generalizations.  This includes cops, woke university admissions panels, everybody.

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"Many"? How many? I guarantee that the number of woke people who think whites are the devil or whatever weird caricature of woke beliefs you have in mind pales to insignificance to the number of people who think blacks are intrinsically lazy and prone to criminality (and this includes people with actual institutional power and influence, not a few purveyors of doofy EDI trainings or profs from obscure colleges).

Both racial stereotypes are harmful, which is my point.  Both causes resentment, hatred, discrimination, and disunity.  I'm not trying to argue who is worse, I'm not really suse what the point of that would be.  Yeah alt-right racists in the US are almost certainly a bigger problem than racist "woke people", but what does that prove?

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Right because white people apparently have no agency and can only respond to being accused of racism by actually becoming racist.

What i'm saying is if people, especially non-white people, keep attacking "white people" as a group rather than attacking racist white individuals or racist laws/policies/institutions then a lot of white people are just going to dig in their heels.  Moderates will turn socially conservative, the conservatives will go alt-right, and the alt-right will go even more Nazi than before.  I think making racism and racists the enemy rather than "white people" is an idea that reasonable can get behind, rather than pitting racial groups against racial groups, which is a recipe for disaster.
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Offline Black Dog

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Re: The sad state of the (UN) United States
« Reply #117 on: November 23, 2021, 10:19:05 am »
I don't think we should typically help people based on race, but on need.  If you're poor we should help you, regardless of race.  If you need help with healthcare, social services, tuition, etc. we should help you regardless of race.  If you live in a poor community and your school or certain individual kids in those schools need support and funding let's help them and fund their support, regardless of race.

Except race is often a useful proxy for need. Not in every individual case, but in general. Just look at the racial wealth gap, education gap, etc etc

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You could make a special case for aboriginal communities being treated differently since it's a special case and many of them live on reserves and there's a lot of unique legal and historical issues there.  But you could also help them because the individuals in those communities need help more than most Canadians and have some of the lowest socioeconomic outcomes, rather than simply through some sense of colonial guilt. Personally it doesn't matter to me what culture/race you are, if you're hurting and you need help we should help you because it's the human thing to do, whether you're "white trash" or live on a reserve.

What's wrong with colonial guilt?

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Meanwhile, we need to keep reminding each other that we should all be judged as individuals based on our own actions, merit, character rather than prejudging each other based on the racial group we belong to and stop discriminating against others based on those racial generalizations.  This includes cops, woke university admissions panels, everybody.

Again, this is a fantasy, a well-meaning one, but a fantasy all the same. What's more it's damaging because it prevents one from addressing problems that actually exist. Pretending race doesn't matter doesn't make it so.

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Both racial stereotypes are harmful, which is my point. 

No, I don't think the anti-white stereotype is harmful since it's not a view that is widely held by anyone who matters or has power to act on it so its real world impacts are non-existent.

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Both causes resentment, hatred, discrimination, and disunity.  I'm not trying to argue who is worse, I'm not really suse what the point of that would be.  Yeah alt-right racists in the US are almost certainly a bigger problem than racist "woke people", but what does that prove?

I'm not talking about alt-right racists, but the way racist attitudes and stereotypes are embedded in society even in people who probably wouldn't otherwise consider themselves to be racist.

As for what it proves, again, it shows that the focus on "woke racism" is intentional misdirection.

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What i'm saying is if people, especially non-white people, keep attacking "white people" as a group rather than attacking racist white individuals or racist laws/policies/institutions then a lot of white people are just going to dig in their heels.  Moderates will turn socially conservative, the conservatives will go alt-right, and the alt-right will go even more Nazi than before.  I think making racism and racists the enemy rather than "white people" is an idea that reasonable can get behind, rather than pitting racial groups against racial groups, which is a recipe for disaster.

Again, almost nobody attacks white people as a group. The problem is white people have a unique tendency to associate criticism of white privilege, white supremacy or racist institutions with themselves. That's not the fault of the people pointing out that there are racist institutions, that's on the overly sensitive white people.
« Last Edit: November 23, 2021, 11:10:13 am by Black Dog »

Offline Queefer Sutherland

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Re: The sad state of the (UN) United States
« Reply #118 on: November 23, 2021, 12:24:26 pm »
Except race is often a useful proxy for need. Not in every individual case, but in general. Just look at the racial wealth gap, education gap, etc etc
Different groups of people are going to have different economic and education outcomes.  Look at east asians and south asians.  But there's also east asians and south asians with poor education and income outcomes, and there's poor black people and well-off black people.

It's much more effective to target need based on the actual deficit (income, education etc) of the individuals who need it, rather than targeting it based on race.

Maybe there's some kids of a certain race falling behind in a school, and part of the reason identified is racial bias by administrators in suspensions.  I don't think the answer is to treat those kids differently based on race, I think the answer is to do everything to help admins/teachers treat all kids the same regardless of race.  I'm not saying race is never relevant or never matters, because sometimes it does.

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No, I don't think the anti-white stereotype is harmful since it's not a view that is widely held by anyone who matters or has power to act on it so its real world impacts are non-existent.

Any stereotypes that profess that an entire racial group is "bad" or "at fault" for something is harmful because it causes resentment and discrimination.  There's so many examples of this through history.  Races aren't responsible for things, people are.  "White people" today as a group aren't responsible for slavery.  The people who are responsible for slavery are the individuals who supported and instituted slavery.  Let's call them "slavery supporting white people".  If someone resents them I don't blame them, but resenting an entire race of people is just hateful and illogical.  There's a difference between Abe Lincoln and a plantation owner.

Whether an idea is bad or not has nothing to do with how many people believe it or the positions of power they hold.  It's a toxic belief, full stop.

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As for what it proves, again, it shows that the focus on "woke racism" is intentional misdirection.

This is a conspiracy theory.

Also, two ideas can be bad at the same time.  Just because anti-black racism is a much bigger problem than woke racism doesn't mean woke racism isn't a problem, or a bad idea, or that we shouldn't criticize it.  This is not a competition of bad ideas.  All bad ideas should be criticized.

If you want to criticize Ben Shapiro for criticizing wokism more often than anti-black racism that's fine, it just doesn't invalidate his points on wokism.

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Again, almost nobody attacks white people as a group. The problem is white people have a unique tendency to associate criticism of white privilege, white supremacy or racist institutions with themselves. That's not the fault of the people pointing out that there are racist institutions, that's on the overly sensitive white people.

They're both problems.  Again, it's not a competition where one invalidates the other.
« Last Edit: November 23, 2021, 12:26:07 pm by Nipples Von Graham »
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Offline Black Dog

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Re: The sad state of the (UN) United States
« Reply #119 on: November 23, 2021, 01:38:17 pm »
Any stereotypes that profess that an entire racial group is "bad" or "at fault" for something is harmful because it causes resentment and discrimination. There's so many examples of this through history.  Races aren't responsible for things, people are.  "White people" today as a group aren't responsible for slavery.  The people who are responsible for slavery are the individuals who supported and instituted slavery.  Let's call them "slavery supporting white people".  If someone resents them I don't blame them, but resenting an entire race of people is just hateful and illogical.  There's a difference between Abe Lincoln and a plantation owner.
Whether an idea is bad or not has nothing to do with how many people believe it or the positions of power they hold.  It's a toxic belief, full stop.


But you specifically said "harmful" which is not the same thing as "bad". The belief that white people are evil may be bad, but it's a fringe belief that is far less harmful than the pervasive stereotypes about Blacks or Indigenous people or Asians. So it is absurd to lump them together.

Oh and if you're going to criticize something, at least understand what it is you're criticizing. Wokeness is not about demonizing white people.

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This is a conspiracy theory.

No, it's not. right wing activists have literally admitted the point of the anti-CRT panic is to make wokeness toxic and destroy anti-racism efforts.

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Also, two ideas can be bad at the same time.  Just because anti-black racism is a much bigger problem than woke racism doesn't mean woke racism isn't a problem, or a bad idea, or that we shouldn't criticize it.  This is not a competition of bad ideas.  All bad ideas should be criticized.

No, it shows your priorities are totally out of whack and you lack perspective as to what's important. And you can't tell the difference between something that annoys you and something that is actually dangerous.

The belief that the earth is flat is a bad idea and so is the belief that vaccines are extremely dangerous, but only one of those ideas has capacity to cause extensive real world harm. Same goes for "wokeness" vs herrenvolk nationalism.
« Last Edit: November 23, 2021, 01:55:36 pm by Black Dog »