Author Topic: The sad state of the (UN) United States  (Read 24085 times)

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Online Michael Hardner

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Re: The sad state of the (UN) United States
« Reply #75 on: November 20, 2021, 07:15:07 pm »
Well, online is new. That's the only new part.

Ok.  Thanks.

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Vigilantism has a very long and well-respected history in the US. They're not like **** Canada where a guy who defends his property gets arrested because cringing city people in their high towers make all the rules and can't imagine why anyone would ever need to defend themselves.

I've heard it before. This is 'Defund The Police'. 

I'm glad you are American, you are fostering the kind of community you want.

Offline The Cynic

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Re: The sad state of the (UN) United States
« Reply #76 on: November 20, 2021, 07:51:14 pm »
Ok.  Thanks.

I've heard it before. This is 'Defund The Police'. 

I'm glad you are American, you are fostering the kind of community you want.

How am I doing that? I think Rittenhouse was an idiot. But the people he shot were even worse idiots and no loss.
Get it through your head I'm a centrist. But the kind of ignorant, arrogant, contemptuous looking down their noses at ordinary people **** I see from some of the fanatical people here is the same **** I see from their counterparts in the US, and it's what's driving more moderate people to hold their noses and vote Republican. The Republicans are vermin but at least they don't hate me, my community, and my family and friends. And they might be racists but they're not racist TOWARDS me and my community and family and friends the way so many of the so-called 'liberals' are. They won't hire or promote a black or brown man or woman above me just because of their skin color or womb.

Online Michael Hardner

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Re: The sad state of the (UN) United States
« Reply #77 on: November 20, 2021, 09:20:54 pm »
1. How am I doing that? 

2. Get it through your head I'm a centrist.

3a. But the kind of ignorant, arrogant, contemptuous looking down their noses at ordinary people **** I see from some of the fanatical people here is the same **** I see from their counterparts in the US, and it's what's driving more moderate people to hold their noses and vote Republican.

3b. The Republicans are vermin but at least they don't hate me, my community, and my family and friends. And they might be racists but they're not racist TOWARDS me and my community and family and friends the way so many of the so-called 'liberals' are. They won't hire or promote a black or brown man or woman above me just because of their skin color or womb.
1. You seem to be defending what is happening as normal, part of a historical tradition and so on.

2. You calling yourself a centrist doesn't make it so.  And anyway that term has no meaning across CDN-USA contexts.  This doesn't seem like a centrist position:

"And yet if it came to voting for that group or you lot I think I'd probably be strongly, strongly tempted to vote Trump's ticket. Because you're mostly a bunch of arrogant, hateful scum too, but your hate and contempt is directed more towards anyone who isn't a far-left university-educated urban **** like you."

3. I don't think I look down my nose at YOU, per se.  Your argument style isn't great but you saved it from the fire by at least conceding a point so I admire you for that. 

Now - voting for a party because of an archetype about the type of people who vote for the OTHER party is a weird kind of identity self-own that I absolutely can't relate to.  It seems to me that's what you are doing.  I'm not looking down my nose here, just reading what you wrote and commenting on it.

In my context; Liberals tend to win in my city but there are lots of conservatives, including the mayor.  I have close friends in the city who are conservative and libertarian and they have valid points of view and generally the same values.

So, no, I don't HATE people that I don't know - that's just delusional IMO.  I'm not saying you personally do but it seems to me that you think Democrats hate you, and that 'hate' something like that is happening on the largest scale in the USA.

Is allowing people to carry weapons and patrol [whatever you want to call BLM events] good for that situation ?  If you are the NRA then I guess so but otherwise... it seems ultimately ruinous.


Offline The Cynic

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Re: The sad state of the (UN) United States
« Reply #78 on: November 20, 2021, 10:08:45 pm »
1. You seem to be defending what is happening as normal, part of a historical tradition and so on.

I explained it was so. That's not the same thing as thinking it should be so.


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"And yet if it came to voting for that group or you lot I think I'd probably be strongly, strongly tempted to vote Trump's ticket. Because you're mostly a bunch of arrogant, hateful scum too, but your hate and contempt is directed more towards anyone who isn't a far-left university-educated urban **** like you."

3. I don't think I look down my nose at YOU, per se.  Your argument style isn't great but you saved it from the fire by at least conceding a point so I admire you for that. 

Give me a break. Your posts reek of arrogance, even if you don't use the language of **** like blackbdog.  You're still definitely on his team.

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Now - voting for a party because of an archetype about the type of people who vote for the OTHER party is a weird kind of identity self-own that I absolutely can't relate to.  It seems to me that's what you are doing.  I'm not looking down my nose here, just reading what you wrote and commenting on it.

Everything is an archetype. It's just that your side doesn't care about the ones on the Left and dismiss them while you believe everything about those on the right. The Left is your team and you accept they are always well-meaning, so their 'protests' are not riots no matter how many people they assault or how many buildings they burn and loot. Their hearts are in the right place, right? They're in favor of 'social justice' just like you. And those evil people on the Right are not.

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So, no, I don't HATE people that I don't know - that's just delusional IMO.  I'm not saying you personally do but it seems to me that you think Democrats hate you, and that 'hate' something like that is happening on the largest scale in the USA.

There is a huge contempt from liberal urban university graduates, especially those indoctrinated in social justice towards blue-collar workers, towards conservatives, towards rural people, towards the military, towards religious people (but only if they're Christian), and towards anyone who doesn't speak the same bullshit indecipherable linguistic babble as they do and have the same fashionable views on the alphabet soup people, law and order, border security and racial injustice. Even that doddering fool Biden can't seem to make any announcements that don't single out some identity group or other for special praise. And he's the moderate standard-bearer. Why did he pick that incompetent idiot for a vice president? Because he insisted on a woman and on a woman of color and he didn't have much to choose from. She was unpopular in the primaries and is unpopular now. Whatever happened to picking people on merit and not color?

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Is allowing people to carry weapons and patrol [whatever you want to call BLM events] good for that situation ?  If you are the NRA then I guess so but otherwise... it seems ultimately ruinous.

There's only one reason **** like this happens and it's a lack of policing. You have proper policing with a decent response time, you have local prosecutors zealously putting violent people in prison and a strong parole system that doesn't act like a revolving door, you have police clamping down on street protests the moment they show signs of violence, and you won't see things like this happening. When you have police ordered to retreat and let their police station be burned, ordered to not arrest demonstrators, huge blocks of stores looted and burned and local Democratic prosecutors refusing to press charges against criminals then you get stuff like this. It shouldn't happen but it will happen. But only in cities run by the Democrats. You think you'd have two straight years of daily riots in Portland if it was run by Republicans? Not likely, bud.

Online Michael Hardner

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Re: The sad state of the (UN) United States
« Reply #79 on: November 20, 2021, 10:26:27 pm »
1. I explained it was so. That's not the same thing as thinking it should be so.

2. Give me a break. Your posts reek of arrogance, even if you don't use the language of **** like blackbdog.  You're still definitely on his team.

3. Everything is an archetype.

4. It's just that your side doesn't care about the ones on the Left and dismiss them while you believe everything about those on the right. The Left is your team and you accept they are always well-meaning, so their 'protests' are not riots no matter how many people they assault or how many buildings they burn and loot. Their hearts are in the right place, right? They're in favor of 'social justice' just like you. And those evil people on the Right are not.

5. There is a huge contempt from liberal urban university graduates, especially those indoctrinated in social justice towards blue-collar workers, towards conservatives, towards rural people, towards the military, towards religious people (but only if they're Christian), and towards anyone who doesn't speak the same bullshit indecipherable linguistic babble as they do and have the same fashionable views on the alphabet soup people, law and order, border security and racial injustice. Even that doddering fool Biden can't seem to make any announcements that don't single out some identity group or other for special praise. And he's the moderate standard-bearer. Why did he pick that incompetent idiot for a vice president? Because he insisted on a woman and on a woman of color and he didn't have much to choose from. She was unpopular in the primaries and is unpopular now. Whatever happened to picking people on merit and not color?

6. There's only one reason **** like this happens and it's a lack of policing. You have proper policing with a decent response time, you have local prosecutors zealously putting violent people in prison and a strong parole system that doesn't act like a revolving door, you have police clamping down on street protests the moment they show signs of violence, and you won't see things like this happening. When you have police ordered to retreat and let their police station be burned, ordered to not arrest demonstrators, huge blocks of stores looted and burned and local Democratic prosecutors refusing to press charges against criminals then you get stuff like this. It shouldn't happen but it will happen. But only in cities run by the Democrats. You think you'd have two straight years of daily riots in Portland if it was run by Republicans? Not likely, bud.

1. So you're against vigilantism ?  Open carry laws ?  Be clear on this because I can't seem to understand where you stand on this.  I don't deny the legality of what happened, but I am saying that the new firearm laws, and culture are leading down a dangerous path.

2. You see politics as team sports and want to 'win' arguments.  That's why you are sizing up my arrogance etc.  I don't have any opinion on your character, just trying to understand your arguments.

3. What does that mean ?  Are you an archetype ?  I am not one.

4. You're making up opinions on me without knowing me especially adding me to some fictitious 'team'.  Even if you knew me, it's known as ad hominem.  And I already said that I have and respect my conservative friends. 

5. This is all archetypes and identity politics.  It only serves as a shortcut for people who would rather argue personalities than facts IMO.

6. The US already has a strong law-and-order mentality and a high percentage of incarceration.   Both sides seem to be against the government, in some form, and each other generally.  There are stand-offs against the Bureau of Land Management, State Governments, local police and so on.

So, I defer to my past comments about arming the culture war and how destructive it is.  Your solution seems to be a hard clampdown.  Trump was in office for 4 years and he was pretty hard line.  I just don't see how that would alleviate things.

The US is the wealthiest nation in history, on the whole, and nobody seems to want to broker peace in this culture war.  You want to clampdown on BLM gatherings/BLM riots.  I think that kid tried the clampdown route, in his own way. 

Offline The Cynic

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Re: The sad state of the (UN) United States
« Reply #80 on: November 21, 2021, 10:26:05 am »
1. So you're against vigilantism ?  Open carry laws ?  Be clear on this because I can't seem to understand where you stand on this.  I don't deny the legality of what happened, but I am saying that the new firearm laws, and culture are leading down a dangerous path.

I think open carry laws are **** dumb. Nor do I approve of giving every moron who wants the right to carry concealed. I believe in reasonable gun control laws.

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2. You see politics as team sports and want to 'win' arguments.  That's why you are sizing up my arrogance etc.  I don't have any opinion on your character, just trying to understand your arguments.

It's not politics, it's culture. And it's a team sport because the Left made it so. It separated everyone according to their identity and grievance rating and then set them into a hierarchy of importance, with the white oppressors all being the enemy. You are now amazed that the white oppressors have decided that they're tired of constantly being **** on and are starting to resent it?

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6. The US already has a strong law-and-order mentality and a high percentage of incarceration.   Both sides seem to be against the government, in some form, and each other generally.  There are stand-offs against the Bureau of Land Management, State Governments, local police and so on.

Both sides are against law and order too, just in different ways. The Left feels sympathy towards criminals and sees them as all being victims of society, wants to pat them on the head and send them right back to looting, burning and assaulting people. The right want them all incarcerated for life but refuse to pay for it, and the courts are a mess. Then you have local prosecutors who are highly politicized, and the ones in democratic counties increasingly owe their jobs to far left racial activist groups and organizations and are increasingly refusing to prosecute for many non-violent crimes and even some which are violent. The streets are jammed with homeless people in many Democratic cities, most of them crazy or drugged out or both, and often violent. BLM demonstrations became lootfests and arsonfests throughout most Democratic cities and the police were powerless to act, hamstrung by cowardly Democratic politicians afraid of losing support from Black community groups.

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Your solution seems to be a hard clampdown.  Trump was in office for 4 years and he was pretty hard line.

Trump was an **** who only made mouth noises while filling his face with fried chicken and spending his time on Twitter and FOX. He didn't do ****. And anyway, most enforcement of crime is at the city, county and state level. The states write the laws and the cities and counties enforce them. And almost all the major cities are controlled by the Democrats because of heavy black support. They won't do a damn thing that looks like it might be against BLM or any protest for 'social/racial justice'.

As far as I'm concerned when a protest descends into mob violence, do what Lindsey Graham reportedly advocated towards the January 6 rioters on Capitol Hill - open fire on them. And yeah, Graham is a spineless, lying, hypocritical weasel, but he was right there.

« Last Edit: November 21, 2021, 10:32:58 am by The Cynic »

Offline Queefer Sutherland

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Re: The sad state of the (UN) United States
« Reply #81 on: November 21, 2021, 11:01:41 pm »
What does race have to do with a white kid picking up a gun and going to a protest over the police shooting of a black man, hmm that's a head-scratcher.

Again, what does that have to do with this trail?  Jacob Blake wasn't part of the trial.  It was a trial of a white guy who attacked another white guy so the 2nd white guy shot the attacker, then ran towards the cops and was again attacked by some other white guys so he shot them too.

So is a mostly-white jury supposed to feel racial bias in favour of the white people who are dead/injured(prosecution) the white person who shot them (defendant)?  Jacob Blake wasn't on trial nor were any black people/POC as far as I know.  Making this out to be some issue where the jury favoured Rittenhouse because he was white is just nonsense and not backed any evidence whatsoever.  They deliberated for 4 days, the jury clearly thought this one out very carefully, especially considering its high profile nature.

Rittenhouse wasn't allowed at open-carry an assault rifle at his age, so he should be punished for breaking that law and for breaking curfew.

If you have evidence that the jury was biased towards Rittenhouse please post it.

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Yeah and like I said, the precedent here is anyone can now insert themselves into a dangerous situation and when things escalate, kill people and claim self -defense. Of course that won't be applied equally.

If the case went the other way the precedent would be that people can physically attack you and you can't defend yourself from it.  Either way, in a violent physical encounter somebody is going to get hurt, and i would prefer the person who is the aggressor to get hurt more than the person defending themselves.

I think the main issue to all of this is that people should follow the law.  If everyone followed the law, Jacob Blake would be alive and nobody would have been attacked or shot.  IF everyone followed the law Rittenhouse/Rosenbaum etc would have not been out after curfew, Rosenbaum wouldn't have physically attacked Rittenhouse, and Rittenhouse would not have been carrying a firearm he wasn't legally allowed to carry due to being underage.
« Last Edit: November 21, 2021, 11:03:14 pm by Nipples Von Graham »
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Offline Queefer Sutherland

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Re: The sad state of the (UN) United States
« Reply #82 on: November 21, 2021, 11:05:54 pm »

Bullshit. If OJ Simpson taught us anything it's that money talks, not race in US courtrooms. Rittenhouse had a good lawyer.

The prosecution on this case sucked and they also sucked on the OJ trial.  OJ had the best criminal lawyers in the country on his case.
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Offline Queefer Sutherland

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Re: The sad state of the (UN) United States
« Reply #83 on: November 21, 2021, 11:18:46 pm »
"Take out guns" ... he was 17 and walking around with a rifle looking for trouble, dropped off by his mom from another town.  He was hunting.

What I *think* about American law is it's being reframed to enable vigilante justice, in the short term, and civil war in the long term.

That's not true.  He wasn't "hunting", he was protecting (in his mind).  He went there to protect private property from rioters and so were many others just like him that night.  I do believe he and others were offended by the riots and lack of "law and order".  Doing that wasn't exactly a very smart thing to do, especially carrying around an AR-15 while underage. Someone didn't like what he was doing and attacked him, so he defended himself.  Unfortunately the police weren't doing much to stop the riots either, i assume thanks to the city's orders to stand down.  Since the Floyd murder it was really a cascading series of events that unfolded.  I just really don't think his intentions were to specifically find people to kill, but he was prepared to defend himself with violence and that's not a good situation to put yourself in.  You could maybe say the rioters and the "protectors" like Rittenhouse were prepared for a fight, and that's a really stupid situation to put yourself in on all sides.

If anyone was hunting, it was Rosenbaum.  Rosenbaum was a mentally ill  peda-phile ex-con who was suicidal, it seemed like he wanted to die that night and he made it happen.  Rosenbaum was also molested as a child, and was homeless at the time of the shooting.  So he had a horrible life and probably died by de-facto suicide.  What a very sad story.  He was a peda-phile but I also feel for him because he was himself molested, maybe learned behaviour?  What a sad story.
« Last Edit: November 21, 2021, 11:36:16 pm by Nipples Von Graham »
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Offline Queefer Sutherland

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Re: The sad state of the (UN) United States
« Reply #84 on: November 21, 2021, 11:34:46 pm »
What I *think* about American law is it's being reframed to enable vigilante justice, in the short term, and civil war in the long term.

I don't think it's being reframed, I think this is the way American law has always been.  The trial wasn't about vigilante justice, because the trail was about 2 murders and not about the legality of Rittenhouse being there to protect private property with firearms.  It's ALWAYS been legal to protect private property with firearms, and to protect your person with firearms, because of the 2nd amendment.

That's not to say I agree with it, or the 2nd amendment, that's just American law and an American culture that has embraced it.  And therefore, lots of gun ownership and lots of gun violence in that country.  I think Canadians, including myself, don't really fully understand the American mindset because it's simply so foreign to our mindset.  The culture is just so different.  I have an American friend who lives in Texas, and he lives in a different reality than I do and I understand that just by talking to him.  He hasn't even been vaxxed yet.
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Offline eyeball

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Re: The sad state of the (UN) United States
« Reply #85 on: November 22, 2021, 12:08:55 am »
I think the main issue to all of this is that people should follow the law. 
They are but since the law is retarded it kinda follows the situations it produces will be too.

America is struggling with effects here not causes.
« Last Edit: November 22, 2021, 12:50:18 am by eyeball »
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Offline Queefer Sutherland

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Re: The sad state of the (UN) United States
« Reply #86 on: November 22, 2021, 02:01:31 am »
They are but since the law is retarded it kinda follows the situations it produces will be too.

America is struggling with effects here not causes.

If cops followed the law and their own policies they would not abuse members of the public, including black people.  If George Floyd followed the law the cops wouldn't have been called nor would he have be put in a police car.

If everyone in Kenosha followed the law they'd all be at home following curfew and not running around on the streets in dangerous situations.

Good people who have good sense typically don't get shot, arrested, put on trial for murder, pulled over by police/arrested, or put on trial for committing police brutality against a member of the public.
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Online Michael Hardner

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Re: The sad state of the (UN) United States
« Reply #87 on: November 22, 2021, 07:43:00 am »
I don't think it's being reframed, I think this is the way American law has always been.   

It is.  "STAND YOUR GROUND" "OPEN CARRY" and the changing of laws to reflect a view of public order that is derived from vengeance movies is new.
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Offline The Cynic

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Re: The sad state of the (UN) United States
« Reply #88 on: November 22, 2021, 11:41:25 am »
You want to know why people want guns in America? Because vermin like this are allowed to roam the streets year after year when they should just be executed or put in cages for the remainder of their unnatural lives. There are so many like him, violent, irredeemable, dozens of violent offenses over many years. This guy was arrested and skipped bail and was released AGAIN on bail for a lousy thousand dollars. Now five people and counting are dead. One of you so precious, caring, concerned liberal types please explain why people like this are on the streets? Because say what you will about conservatives, but this guy would not be out on the street in a conservative world.

He has a long rap sheet and a number of pending cases. Brooks’ most recent court appearance came on Nov. 5 for charges including reckless endangerment, battery, domestic abuse, resisting arrest and bail jumping. He was out on $1,000 bail for those charges at the time of the attack. In July 2020, police charged him with three other felonies – including reckless endangerment and being a felon in possession of a firearm. He’s also listed as a Tier 2 registered sex offender in Nevada.

A background check from Wisconsin's Department of Justice came back with over 50 pages of charges against Brooks stretching back decades. In 1999 he received his first felony conviction for taking part in an aggravated battery – for which he received three years of probation, records show. He was convicted of obstructing an officer in 2005 and 2003. In 2002 he had another felony marijuana charge. In 2010 he pleaded no contest to felony strangulation charges after allegedly attacking a woman during an argument about phone calls.

https://www.foxnews.com/us/waukesha-christmas-parade-darrell-brooks
« Last Edit: November 22, 2021, 11:43:02 am by The Cynic »

Online Michael Hardner

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Re: The sad state of the (UN) United States
« Reply #89 on: November 22, 2021, 11:59:08 am »
 
It's not politics, it's culture. And it's a team sport because the Left made it so. It separated everyone according to their identity and grievance rating and then set them into a hierarchy of importance, with the white oppressors all being the enemy. You are now amazed that the white oppressors have decided that they're tired of constantly being **** on and are starting to resent it?

Well, for one thing I think this happened gradually over a few decades.  Secondly, do you think this is a bad thing or not ?  If the Left did it, then why are you falling into their framework ?

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 One of you so precious, caring, concerned liberal types please explain why people like this are on the streets? Because say what you will about conservatives, but this guy would not be out on the street in a conservative world.

Again, you can't seem to be able to argue the facts without tying the people you're talking to to some kind of liberal 'movement'.  I don't ask what team YOU are on, I just want to know what principles you are using and where you are getting your facts to apply them so we can discuss things.

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He has a long rap sheet and a number of pending cases. Brooks’ most recent court appearance came on Nov. 5 for charges including reckless endangerment, battery, domestic abuse, resisting arrest and bail jumping. He was out on $1,000 bail for those charges at the time of the attack. In July 2020, police charged him with three other felonies – including reckless endangerment and being a felon in possession of a firearm. He’s also listed as a Tier 2 registered sex offender in Nevada.

A background check from Wisconsin's Department of Justice came back with over 50 pages of charges against Brooks stretching back decades. In 1999 he received his first felony conviction for taking part in an aggravated battery – for which he received three years of probation, records show. He was convicted of obstructing an officer in 2005 and 2003. In 2002 he had another felony marijuana charge. In 2010 he pleaded no contest to felony strangulation charges after allegedly attacking a woman during an argument about phone calls.


Ok - well the system (the American system) jails a ton of people and still seems to get it wrong.  They definitely have a "law and order" approach.  And crime rates have generally declined. 

Would you say that maybe you're a perfectionist in this regard ? Do you think that the pervasiveness of crime coverage, availability of phone footage of violence may be creating a perception that things are worse than they actually are ?

Let's just have a discussion without you jumping up and attaching me to "the left" - can we do that ?