Author Topic: The Me-Too Movement - Is Merit and Skill on the Job Important?  (Read 1087 times)

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Offline JBG

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The Me-Too Movement - Is Merit and Skill on the Job Important?
« on: February 10, 2018, 08:03:42 am »
Kelly Willing to Step Down Over Accused Aide, Officials Say

Quote from: New York Times
WASHINGTON — John F. Kelly, the White House chief of staff, told officials in the West Wing on Friday that he was willing to step down over his handling of allegations of spousal abuse against Rob Porter, the staff secretary who resigned in disgrace this week over the accusations, according to two officials aware of the discussions.
Forgive me, but I don't know what Rob Porter's nastiness as a husband or significant other has to do with his skill on the job. It seems that "sensitivity" has overriden other considerations for evaluating our elected and appointed officials. I can see its importance for a chief elected leader; they are supposed to set an example for others. But the people can make that decision. I can see its importance for, say, a doctor in direct physical contact with young gymnasts.

But we seem to have reached a period now where merit matters little and political and behavioral characteristics overrides (I don't want to say "trumps") all else. If we found out that Jonas Salk was a misogynist would that diminish the value of the polio vaccine? Would we have deprived him of the use of a lab at the University of Pittsburgh to do his work?

Ty Cobb was a notoriously nasty individual. Would we have deprived him of a spot on the Detroit Tigers? Alexander Hamilton was notoriously unfaithful to his wife. Need I say more?

I think we should balance what a person has to offer with their negatives as a person. And not go to absolutes of keeping people with bad aspects out of all employment, not to say public life.
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Offline Michael Hardner

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Kelly Willing to Step Down Over Accused Aide, Officials Say
Forgive me, but I don't know what Rob Porter's nastiness as a husband or significant other has to do with his skill on the job. It seems that "sensitivity" has overriden other considerations for evaluating our elected and appointed officials. I can see its importance for a chief elected leader; they are supposed to set an example for others. But the people can make that decision.

"Rob Porter, a top White House aide with regular access to President Donald Trump abruptly resigned on Wednesday amid abuse allegations from two ex-wives, who each detailed to CNN what they said were years of consistent abuse from Porter, including incidents of physical violence."

So, it may not have to do with his skill, however there are two considerations to be made:

1) If someone in the administration is accused of a crime, ie. assault, then it needs to be looked into first.  That's the convention that administrations have generally followed.

2) There are political implications to such acts.  The administration needs to have a good relationship with the people that elected it and allegations of inappropriate behaviour, leaving aside the serious question of abuse, bring that into risk.


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But we seem to have reached a period now where merit matters little and political and behavioral characteristics overrides (I don't want to say "trumps") all else. If we found out that Jonas Salk was a misogynist would that diminish the value of the polio vaccine? Would we have deprived him of the use of a lab at the University of Pittsburgh to do his work?

This is the 'slippery slope' argument.  Wherein we start with Rob Porter "a top {LOL} white house aide" who assaulted women is eventually whittled down to be analogous to "Jonas Salk having misogynist attitudes".

So to your question the answer is "No, Jonas Salk being a misogynist wouldn't diminish the value of the polio vaccine".

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Ty Cobb was a notoriously nasty individual. Would we have deprived him of a spot on the Detroit Tigers?

Actually, yes.  That's a different question.  Sportsmen are entertainers, and have morality clauses in their contracts.  It doesn't matter if you are a great QB, your idea to host dog fights in your house {Michael Vick} will make you unmarketable in the sport.  Even smoking pot will banish you to the CFL.

Sad, but you chose to be in the big leagues.

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Alexander Hamilton was notoriously unfaithful to his wife. Need I say more?

Unfaithfulness is even not respected.  A recent left-wing wunderkind had to resign the MAYORAL race because he was unfaithful to his GIRLFRIEND. 

 
« Last Edit: February 10, 2018, 10:33:47 am by MH »

Offline SirJohn

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Society seems to be taking a puritan attitude towards anyone in the public eye, especially politics. They have to be 'more Catholic than the pope' and never say or do anything immoral, unethical or controversial (Trump exepted). A guy who was expected to run in the upcoming election in Ontario quit because a paper discovered a few past facebook postings, some years old, which were vaguely naughty. They were bascially the kind of facebook posts almost any young man might post, but in today's atmosphere regular guys are anathema.

Some of Bubel’s posts over the past several years, obtained by the Star, include:

Photo of a man wearing a T-shirt saying: “I’d rather be snorting **** off a hooker’s a--.”

Writing “I feel like I need a shower” after walking in downtown Barrie, where he says he “can’t walk 20 feet without getting hit up for change.”
Commenting “I would NEVER call you an elite . . . c---s----- maybe.”
A joke about a man punching a female monkey in the face before she performs oral sex.
Photo of a cheerleader holding a sign saying “c---s.”

https://www.thestar.com/news/queenspark/2018/02/09/candidate-seeking-barrie-innisfil-nomination-dogged-by-controversial-facebook-posts.html

And all this seems part of the social media environment in which people hunt down those who post or say outrageous things (or things the sensitive think are outrageous), then call up their bosses to try and get them fired. Remember the two toronto firefighters fired for social media posts? Those two were the sort almost any young man might jokingly post.

Two Toronto firefighters, Matt Bowman and Lawaun Edwards, lost their jobs in 2013, according to the Sun, after posting “misogynistic and offensive tweets.” One post by Bowman read, “I’d never let a woman kick my ass. If she tried I’d be like HEY! You get your b—- ass back in the kitchen and make me some pie.” Another by Edwards asked if smacking a woman in the back of the head would be considered “abuse or a way to reset the brain.” The posts were deemed to be in violation of city policy. The men challenged their dismissals. Bowman’s was upheld and Edwards was reinstated.

http://nationalpost.com/posted-toronto/two-toronto-firefighters-terminated-over-unacceptable-sexist-tweets-third-reportedly-fired-over-facebook-post
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Offline Michael Hardner

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Society seems to be taking a puritan attitude towards anyone in the public eye, especially politics.

McLuhan predicted this, btw.  More open media pushes society to be more conservative or somesuch.  Puritanical responses, even though done by liberals, is a conservative response.  It's a topsy-turvy "law and order" and "basic values" response.

Nobody is going to like me for saying that, I feel.

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And all this seems part of the social media environment in which people hunt down those who post or say outrageous things (or things the sensitive think are outrageous), then call up their bosses to try and get them fired. Remember the two toronto firefighters fired for social media posts? Those two were the sort almost any young man might jokingly post.

Right.  But in the early/mid 1970s people got away with being joking and lewd.  It was also a more liberal time, and more locked-down in terms of media control.  It's all very curious as to why the puritanical wave comes up.

I feel that eventually things will calm down to the point where people are not ruined for screwing a cheerleader when married, etc.  I hope it does.

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Two Toronto firefighters, Matt Bowman and Lawaun Edwards, lost their jobs in 2013, according to the Sun, after posting “misogynistic and offensive tweets.” One post by Bowman read, “I’d never let a woman kick my ass. If she tried I’d be like HEY! You get your b—- ass back in the kitchen and make me some pie.” Another by Edwards asked if smacking a woman in the back of the head would be considered “abuse or a way to reset the brain.” The posts were deemed to be in violation of city policy. The men challenged their dismissals. Bowman’s was upheld and Edwards was reinstated.
 

Yes, we can't sustain holding public servants to this kind of standard.  Pluralism means having to put up with ****, as well as living beside Muslims. 

Offline kimmy

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"Larry Nasser might have had some personal issues, but he was a highly skilled medical trainer..."

"Jerry Sandusky might have had some personal issues, but he's one heck of a great defensive coordinator..."

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Offline Michael Hardner

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"Larry Nasser might have had some personal issues, but he was a highly skilled medical trainer..."

"Jerry Sandusky might have had some personal issues, but he's one heck of a great defensive coordinator..."

 -k

 :D

Let's not rob a man of his career just because ....

Offline waldo

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Kelly Willing to Step Down Over Accused Aide, Officials Say
Forgive me, but I don't know what Rob Porter's nastiness as a husband or significant other has to do with his skill on the job.

his not being able to secure a final/complete security clearance, for one! But then again, as I read, at least a dozen Trump admin personnel have not been able to attain the highest security clearance... including son-in-law Kushner. But no worries - many of these persons have access to highly classified information... just so they can verbally convey it to the illiterate-in-chief, Trump.

Offline Omni

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his not being able to secure a final/complete security clearance, for one! But then again, as I read, at least a dozen Trump admin personnel have not been able to attain the highest security clearance... including son-in-law Kushner. But no worries - many of these persons have access to highly classified information... just so they can verbally convey it to the illiterate-in-chief, Trump.

Or to the intellectual in chief, Putin.

Offline SirJohn

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"Larry Nasser might have had some personal issues, but he was a highly skilled medical trainer..."

"Jerry Sandusky might have had some personal issues, but he's one heck of a great defensive coordinator..."

 -k

But we're not talking about child molesters. Should Shawn Bubel be barred from running for office because of his facebook postings?
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline Michael Hardner

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Should Shawn Bubel be barred from running for office because of his facebook postings?

No, of course not.  Which party would pick him up though ?

Offline JBG

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Society seems to be taking a puritan attitude towards anyone in the public eye, especially politics. They have to be 'more Catholic than the pope' and never say or do anything immoral, unethical or controversial (Trump exepted). A guy who was expected to run in the upcoming election in Ontario quit because a paper discovered a few past facebook postings, some years old, which were vaguely naughty. They were bascially the kind of facebook posts almost any young man might post, but in today's atmosphere regular guys are anathema.

It's a strange and suspicious reversal of roles for the Democrats/Liberals to suddenly get puritanical. John Macdonald built a great country. Does it matter that he was a drunk?
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Offline kimmy

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But we're not talking about child molesters. Should Shawn Bubel be barred from running for office because of his facebook postings?

JBG wanted to talk about Rob Porter. Porter isn't a child molester, he's just a wife-beater.  Is that really a much better class of person?


JBG wanted to talk about whether merit should have a role in this... like we can fire this wife-beater because he's expendable, but this other wife-beater we should keep because he's really good at his job.

Also, what even is Rob Porter's job?  "White House Staff Secretary"?  What does that actually mean? Is he the White House coffee-boy? Is he the White House covfefe-boy?  Is the White House Staff Secretary a crucial job that only a select few are capable of handling?  Is this such an elite skillset that you have to overlook a guy's issues because his skills are just too difficult to replace?

I suggest that maybe if you're a wife-beater then maybe a career in the political sphere isn't in the cards.

It's a strange and suspicious reversal of roles for the Democrats/Liberals to suddenly get puritanical.

Earlier you felt that the furor over Larry Nasser was a #MeToo issue when it was in fact a child molestation issue. Now you've apparently concluded that the controversy over Rob Porter is a #MeToo issue when actually it's a spousal battery issue.  It has nothing to do with puritanism.

And let me tell you: if the Republicans have decided that spousal battery is now a partisan issue, they are more morally broken and ethically bankrupt then I'd even imagined possible.

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Offline Queefer Sutherland

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Ty Cobb was a notoriously nasty individual. Would we have deprived him of a spot on the Detroit Tigers? Alexander Hamilton was notoriously unfaithful to his wife. Need I say more?

Being a jerk or unfaithful to your wife isn't illegal.  Domestic abuse & assault is.  So, is it right to fire someone accused of a crime? That's the question.  I suppose it might depend on the nature of the crime, and whether it affects the merits of the job.  ie: sexual abusers working with kids.
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Offline Queefer Sutherland

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JBG wanted to talk about Rob Porter. Porter isn't a child molester, he's just a wife-beater.  Is that really a much better class of person?

Alleged wife-beater.  Should employers be able to fire people based on allegations not yet proven in court?  If a claim turns out not true, should the alleged be able to sue the company for wrongful dismissal?
"Nipples is one of the great minds of our time!" - Bubbermiley

Offline Squidward von Squidderson

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Alleged wife-beater.  Should employers be able to fire people based on allegations not yet proven in court?  If a claim turns out not true, should the alleged be able to sue the company for wrongful dismissal?

If they are a political liability, then yes.  This is not a normal employer...   it’s politics.