Author Topic: The Joe Biden Thread  (Read 6720 times)

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Offline eyeball

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Re: The Joe Biden Thread
« Reply #735 on: February 27, 2021, 05:09:11 pm »

After reading Obama's Promised Land, I came to realise that so much of American foreign policy cannot be changed.  He discussed the issue regarding withdrawing from Iraq, closing Guantanamo and during the fall of Mubarak in Egypt.  What he wanted to do as a human being and what he could do as POTUS weren't always in sync. 

I hate MBS with a passion and I am not defending Biden on this, but after reading Obama's book, I know to take American foreign policy with a grain of salt.  A lot of the time they don't have much choice.

It's probably a good thing I'm not the most powerful man in the world, I wouldn't give it much choice in the matter.

Offline BC_cheque

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Re: The Joe Biden Thread
« Reply #736 on: February 27, 2021, 06:25:38 pm »
It's probably a good thing I'm not the most powerful man in the world, I wouldn't give it much choice in the matter.

Looks like there's hope yet.  Apparently there is an announcement coming Monday from Camp Biden re SA.

Offline Black Dog

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Re: The Joe Biden Thread
« Reply #737 on: March 01, 2021, 11:53:40 am »
First migrant facility for children opens under Biden


No more kids in cages?
No! More kids in cages!
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Offline segnosaur

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Re: The Joe Biden Thread
« Reply #738 on: March 01, 2021, 12:22:49 pm »
First migrant facility for children opens under Biden


No more kids in cages?
No! More kids in cages!
If you read the article, it gives additional details into the situation. Its not as simple as you make it seem.

Immigration does need to deal with unaccompanied minors (or, alternatively, cases where children are found with people who are not their parents or guardians), and this problem has grown with Biden relaxing rules regarding border crossings. In addition, Covid has meant a reduction in the capacity for existing camps. (What are the alternatives? Release the children into the U.S., where many may end up homeless? Leave them in other detention facilities, which themselves are overcrowded? Send them back to their home country, where they may be facing danger?)

This is significantly different than the situation under Trump, where the children in those types of facilities were often there because they were separated from their parents deliberately, as a punishment/deterrant.)
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Offline Gorgeous Graham

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Re: The Joe Biden Thread
« Reply #739 on: March 01, 2021, 02:34:05 pm »
If you read the article, it gives additional details into the situation. Its not as simple as you make it seem.

Did anyone read the "additional details into the situation" under Trump?  If Trump did this it would be outrage.  At least the facilities seem nicer this time.  They sure have issues at the southern border, and it's not going to change any time soon.
I can tell how good of a person you are by how you treat the people you disagree with.
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Offline segnosaur

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Re: The Joe Biden Thread
« Reply #740 on: March 01, 2021, 04:23:51 pm »
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If you read the article, it gives additional details into the situation. Its not as simple as you make it seem.
Did anyone read the"additional details into the situation" under Trump?  If Trump did this it would be outrage.
Maybe, maybe not.

Trump was a despicable human being, and his immigration policy was based on racist ideals (and partly guided by alt-right troll Miller).  We talk about the Trump administration "locking kids in cages" not just because of the poor condition of the facilities that were used (although that might be a part), but as a reminder about all the negative aspects of his policies.... using detention when the Obama administration would often just issue a court summons, the use of family separation as a tool/deterrent, the inability to match children with parents after captivity, etc.

If Trump had not engaged in those other aspects of his immigration plans, and had honestly claimed (if Trump were actually capable of honesty) that "we are holding some children who were not with parents, until we can track down their families" I doubt there would have been a significant amount of criticism. (There is just so much else to condemn Trump for, that attacking actions that don't really have much alternative seems like a waste of time.)
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At least the facilities seem nicer this time.  They sure have issues at the southern border, and it's not going to change any time soon.
Many (probably most) western countries have at least SOME problems with immigration. Even when the leader has some integrity, there will always be situations where compassion for potential immigrants will conflict with things like logistics and security.

Offline Black Dog

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Re: The Joe Biden Thread
« Reply #741 on: March 02, 2021, 10:06:34 am »
If you read the article, it gives additional details into the situation. Its not as simple as you make it seem.

Immigration does need to deal with unaccompanied minors (or, alternatively, cases where children are found with people who are not their parents or guardians), and this problem has grown with Biden relaxing rules regarding border crossings. In addition, Covid has meant a reduction in the capacity for existing camps. (What are the alternatives? Release the children into the U.S., where many may end up homeless? Leave them in other detention facilities, which themselves are overcrowded? Send them back to their home country, where they may be facing danger?)

This is significantly different than the situation under Trump, where the children in those types of facilities were often there because they were separated from their parents deliberately, as a punishment/deterrant.)

You want alternatives? How about putting the kids up in empty hotels with supervision instead of in converted shipping containers in the middle of nowhere run by some dodgy not-for-profit with a record of abusing children, feeding children undercooked and raw food, and stealing from their families when they send them money (a detail the article neglects to include)? Dunno, just spitballing here.


Offline segnosaur

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Re: The Joe Biden Thread
« Reply #742 on: March 02, 2021, 03:26:01 pm »
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Immigration does need to deal with unaccompanied minors (or, alternatively, cases where children are found with people who are not their parents or guardians), and this problem has grown with Biden relaxing rules regarding border crossings. In addition, Covid has meant a reduction in the capacity for existing camps. (What are the alternatives? Release the children into the U.S., where many may end up homeless? Leave them in other detention facilities, which themselves are overcrowded? Send them back to their home country, where they may be facing danger?)
You want alternatives? How about putting the kids up in empty hotels with supervision...
Great idea...

Except... where are these 'empty hotels' supposed to come from? Even though people may not be travelling as much as before pre-covid, I suspect most hotels aren't completely empty. So you would be throwing a bunch of kids in with a bunch of adults.

And what type of 'supervision'? One supervisor per child? One or 2 per hotel? (That's a lot of kids for a supervisor to actually watch for in an otherwise uncontrolled environment.)

And why exactly are you trusting the 'supervision' in this case, since before you suggested that abuse of children was a problem? Do you think a supervisor will automatically be less inclined to be abusive just because they are in a hotel (where the kids would actually be more isolated)?

And hotels are not necessarily designed to keep your average teenager occupied... they are often in urban areas, with few recreational activities available (not to mention things like access to schools). So, the kid would have a much nicer room than if they were kept in a hotel, but everything else would probably suck.

I am not saying that the use of facilities like the camp described in your earlier posting are a good thing.... its not. But, things are a mess right now (no fault of Biden's) and any solution will have problems. Once widespread vaccination for Covid is done (meaning they don't have to run existing long-term shelters at half capacity), and once they have handled any backlog of separated children caused by Stubby McBonespurs and his merry band of white supremacists, then existing long-term care facilities should be able to handle any cases of separated children and these type of short-term facilities can be shut down.
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Offline Black Dog

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Re: The Joe Biden Thread
« Reply #743 on: March 03, 2021, 09:52:23 am »
You want alternatives? How about putting the kids up in empty hotels with supervision...
Great idea...

Except... where are these 'empty hotels' supposed to come from? Even though people may not be travelling as much as before pre-covid, I suspect most hotels aren't completely empty. So you would be throwing a bunch of kids in with a bunch of adults.

And what type of 'supervision'? One supervisor per child? One or 2 per hotel? (That's a lot of kids for a supervisor to actually watch for in an otherwise uncontrolled environment.)

And why exactly are you trusting the 'supervision' in this case, since before you suggested that abuse of children was a problem? Do you think a supervisor will automatically be less inclined to be abusive just because they are in a hotel (where the kids would actually be more isolated)?

And hotels are not necessarily designed to keep your average teenager occupied... they are often in urban areas, with few recreational activities available (not to mention things like access to schools). So, the kid would have a much nicer room than if they were kept in a hotel, but everything else would probably suck.

I am not saying that the use of facilities like the camp described in your earlier posting are a good thing.... its not. But, things are a mess right now (no fault of Biden's) and any solution will have problems. Once widespread vaccination for Covid is done (meaning they don't have to run existing long-term shelters at half capacity), and once they have handled any backlog of separated children caused by Stubby McBonespurs and his merry band of white supremacists, then existing long-term care facilities should be able to handle any cases of separated children and these type of short-term facilities can be shut down.

Ah yes you're right there are issues that need to be sorted out with the hotel plan so I guess it's better to leave them locked in shipping containers in the middle of the desert, surrounded by barbed wire and fencing and looked after by a shady contractor.

Look I get these things take time to fix. But continuing with the same approach as the previous administration is a bad look and needs to be questioned. We saw what happened with Obama when people checked out because they thought a "good guy" was in charge, no one should make that mistake again.

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Offline Black Dog

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Re: The Joe Biden Thread
« Reply #744 on: March 03, 2021, 02:25:27 pm »
great political minds at work here.

$1,400 checks in COVID-19 relief bill would phase out at $80,000 instead of $100,000


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The change could mean many Americans who could have received at least some payment will now receive none.

You know what voters love? Not getting money they were promised.

And these are the kind of ratfuckers who are actually running things:

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Moderate Senate Democrats such as Sen. Joe Manchin, D-W.V., had pushed Biden to tighten the eligibility for the checks and had huddled with the president earlier in the week. Sen. Jon Tester, D-Mont., described their conversation as a discussion on better “targeting” the spending in the bill.

Manchin had pushed for the checks to phase out after $50,000 of income, though the House drafted a $75,000 threshold.

Dems would rather get wiped out in 2022 than help one person who might not need it. True masterminds of losing.


Offline Black Dog

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Re: The Joe Biden Thread
« Reply #745 on: March 05, 2021, 05:07:55 pm »
Dems before the election: "Joe Biden can use his relationships and experience to bring all sides to the table to get more progressive legislation passed!"




8 Democrats defect on $15 minimum wage hike
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Offline Mr. Perfect

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Re: The Joe Biden Thread
« Reply #746 on: March 05, 2021, 07:08:14 pm »
Dems before the election: "Joe Biden can use his relationships and experience to bring all sides to the table to get more progressive legislation passed!"




8 Democrats defect on $15 minimum wage hike

I think the Dems found out that more than a few of them are bought and paid for by corporations still...    the progressive side was probably hoping to use the momentum from the Trump ouster to sneak this by these particular, rather non-progressive, corporatist colleagues.  Didn’t work.
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Offline segnosaur

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Re: The Joe Biden Thread
« Reply #747 on: March 08, 2021, 09:51:22 am »
Re: Possibility of housing unaccompanied children in hotels instead of emergency temporary shelters...
Ah yes you're right there are issues that need to be sorted out with the hotel plan...
You are of course assuming that there actually are solutions to the problems I raised with your little "hotel plan".

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...so I guess it's better to leave them locked in shipping containers in the middle of the desert, surrounded by barbed wire and fencing and looked after by a shady contractor.
Ah yes, a combination of a straw man combined with an appeal to emotion.

No, the kids are not "locked in shipping containers". From the description given in the earlier reference, it sounds like kids have freedom of movement, open recreational activities, etc. And it is true that the camps are isolated from population centers. But since these are kids in a foreign country with no guardian present, I suspect you would want to avoid situations where the headlines of the day become "Unaccompanied immigrant children living in the city abducted by serial killer".
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Look I get these things take time to fix. But continuing with the same approach as the previous administration
Except of course they are not 'continuing with the same approach'.

First of all, the Biden administration is actually working on stopping the problems of unaccompanied minors... they are working to re-unite families, ending the use of criminal proceedings as a deterrent, etc. In fact, if it wasn't for Covid, they probably wouldn't need these temporary shelters.

Secondly, we have seen pictures of some of Trump's detention centers... things like former wal-marts converted to house immigrants. The camp (as described in your reference) is a far cry from such a facility.

The U.S. has had to deal with unaccompanied child immigrants for years (long before Stubby McBonespurs) became president. They have experience housing them in common shelters. Why exactly do you think its necessary to "re-invent the wheel"?


Offline segnosaur

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Re: The Joe Biden Thread
« Reply #748 on: March 08, 2021, 10:03:43 am »
great political minds at work here.

$1,400 checks in COVID-19 relief bill would phase out at $80,000 instead of $100,000


You know what voters love? Not getting money they were promised.

And these are the kind of ratfuckers who are actually running things:

Dems would rather get wiped out in 2022 than help one person who might not need it. True masterminds of losing.
Sigh... you really seem to have a hate-on for the Biden administration and "non-progressive" democrats, don't you.

First of all, lets see:

The average income in the U.S. in 2019 was ~$31k. The cutoff is being lowered from $100k to $80k. Which means that the people who are getting cut off have more than twice the national income. Seems to me that if you want to target a social program to those in need, giving the money to people who probably don't need it is probably a waste of time.

Now, will it cost the democrats votes? Yes, people do like receiving money. But:
- The number of people who would be cut off is relatively small
- Of the people who are getting cut off, many of them probably base their vote on more than just "am I getting a $1400 check". The improvement of the pandemic situation and increases in the economy will probably mean more to them than a one time check
- Of the people who are upset that they won't get their money, what is the alternative? Vote for a party that opposed any economic stimulus package?

Does it mean that the democrats will win in 2022? I suspect it will be a mixed bag... but NOT because of this stimulus package... I suspect what will happen is that the Democrats will hold the senate (largely because there are a larger number of republican senators up for re-election), but lose the house of representatives (because there is a trend for the party that holds the presidency to lose seats in the house.)

Offline segnosaur

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Re: The Joe Biden Thread
« Reply #749 on: March 08, 2021, 10:15:09 am »
I think the Dems found out that more than a few of them are bought and paid for by corporations still...    the progressive side was probably hoping to use the momentum from the Trump ouster to sneak this by these particular, rather non-progressive, corporatist colleagues.  Didn’t work.
Keep in mind that the whole "minimum wage" thing is a little more complex than some people make it out to be.

Yes, it certainly sounds good... "Give people a living wage", but the Congressional Budget Office (a non-partisan part of the government) has pointed out that a large increase in the minimum wage might help many low income workers, but it would also potentially cause thousands of others to lose their jobs.

From: https://www.cnbc.com/2021/02/08/raising-minimum-wage-to-15-would-cost-1point4-million-jobs-cbo-says.html
Raising the federal minimum wage to $15 an hour...would cost 1.4 million jobs over the next four years while lifting 900,000 people out of poverty, according to a Congressional Budget Office report Monday....a nonpartisan agency that provides budgetary analysis to Congress.

If you are a congress-critter from some state with a relatively low cost of living, you might look at the trade-off between wage-increases and unemployment as something that results in more harm than benefit.