Author Topic: The Joe Biden Thread  (Read 41791 times)

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Offline segnosaur

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Re: The Joe Biden Thread
« Reply #720 on: February 03, 2021, 01:26:45 pm »
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Not sure if that would work right now. The Biden administration is attempting to engage in massive spending programs (in large part due to Covid relief, although basic infrastructure spending is also part of that.) Any 'pork projects' will probably be overwhelmed by all the other spending that will be done in their state.
So then you just say "see all these nice things we have planned for your state? Vote to nuke the filibuster and you can keep them. If not, we'll make sure they get nothing and that everyone knows it's your fault." Stop coddling these DINOs.
Keep in mind that of the 2 senators in question: Manchin is from West Virginia, a state that voted for Trump in 2020. And Sinema is from Arizona; while Arizona was won by Biden in 2020, Trump managed to win the state in 2016. So neither state leans solidly democratic.

An attempt to force either senator to take a more hard-line/left-wing stance might jeopardize the Democrat's chances on keeping the states in future elections.

I do recognize that it is frustrating... Moscow Mitch has done everything he can to demolish any sense of bipartisanship and political norms, and now the republicans seem intent on renewing their obstructionist tactics, and Manchin/Sinema don't seem to be willing to stop them. But, Democrats have to play the hand they've been dealt...

Offline Black Dog

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Re: The Joe Biden Thread
« Reply #721 on: February 03, 2021, 04:10:06 pm »
So then you just say "see all these nice things we have planned for your state? Vote to nuke the filibuster and you can keep them. If not, we'll make sure they get nothing and that everyone knows it's your fault." Stop coddling these DINOs.

Keep in mind that of the 2 senators in question: Manchin is from West Virginia, a state that voted for Trump in 2020. And Sinema is from Arizona; while Arizona was won by Biden in 2020, Trump managed to win the state in 2016. So neither state leans solidly democratic.

An attempt to force either senator to take a more hard-line/left-wing stance might jeopardize the Democrat's chances on keeping the states in future elections.

I do recognize that it is frustrating... Moscow Mitch has done everything he can to demolish any sense of bipartisanship and political norms, and now the republicans seem intent on renewing their obstructionist tactics, and Manchin/Sinema don't seem to be willing to stop them. But, Democrats have to play the hand they've been dealt...

Perhaps I'm naive, but I think undecided voters and voters who aren't politically engaged would be more inclined to vote for someone who actually took steps to materially improve the lot of their constituents over those who are mere placeholders. By that I mean, no one gives a **** about bipartisanship outside of elite beltway circles; people just want their stimmy cheques and if Joe Manchin doesn't want to do that, the Democrats should fine someone who will.
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Offline segnosaur

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Re: The Joe Biden Thread
« Reply #722 on: February 04, 2021, 09:20:05 am »
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Keep in mind that of the 2 senators in question: Manchin is from West Virginia, a state that voted for Trump in 2020. And Sinema is from Arizona; while Arizona was won by Biden in 2020, Trump managed to win the state in 2016. So neither state leans solidly democratic.

An attempt to force either senator to take a more hard-line/left-wing stance might jeopardize the Democrat's chances on keeping the states in future elections.
Perhaps I'm naive, but I think undecided voters and voters who aren't politically engaged would be more inclined to vote for someone who actually took steps to materially improve the lot of their constituents over those who are mere placeholders.
You would think people would vote for politicians who "improve their lot", but people don't always make their political decisions based on rational decisions based on facts and logic. They may have problems understanding the connection between a particular government action and how it improves their own situation. They may fall for false promises from opposing politicians.

And the republicans are masters at making people vote against their own best interests.

(Look at the number of people who hate Obamacare, but are all in favor of the Affordable Care Act, not understanding that those are the same things.)

And of course the other problem.... you talked about how a far-left democrat senator could appeal to voters who "aren't politically engaged"... The problem is, those voters who aren't engaged are the type that would be more likely to sit out elections. Meanwhile, the republicans would be using the image of the "radical commie-democrat" to whip their base of evangelicals and alt-right fan boys into a frenzy... and they WOULD vote.

Offline Michael Hardner

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Re: The Joe Biden Thread
« Reply #723 on: February 04, 2021, 09:39:13 am »
1. Perhaps I'm naive, but I think undecided voters and voters who aren't politically engaged would be more inclined to vote for someone who actually took steps to materially improve the lot of their constituents over those who are mere placeholders.

2. You would think people would vote for politicians who "improve their lot", but people don't always make their political decisions based on rational decisions based on facts and logic. They may have problems understanding the connection between a particular government action and how it improves their own situation. They may fall for false promises from opposing politicians.

3. And the republicans are masters at making people vote against their own best interests.

4. (Look at the number of people who hate Obamacare, but are all in favor of the Affordable Care Act, not understanding that those are the same things.)

5. And of course the other problem.... you talked about how a far-left democrat senator could appeal to voters who "aren't politically engaged"... The problem is, those voters who aren't engaged are the type that would be more likely to sit out elections. Meanwhile, the republicans would be using the image of the "radical commie-democrat" to whip their base of evangelicals and alt-right fan boys into a frenzy... and they WOULD vote.
1. My theory as to why the democrats dominated politics in the early 20th century was that it was partially due to what they delivered:
-public services like electricity
-social safety net
-regulation to curtail the excesses of banking and speculation and bring stability

2. Also... does it ?  When FDR established the Tennessee Valley Authority ... built dams ... brought electricity to rural America the connection was evident.  How exactly does a China trade deal "help" the average American ?  It does, but the relationship isn't evident.  But... also doesn't help everyone equally.

3. The Democrats also achieved #1 by demonizing the wealthy.  Lately I have been closely looking at the posts for the craziest Trump supporters and there is a distinct anti-wealth sentiment behind a LOT of it.  I have even read people who seem to think that the Republicans are the party of the working man (sic) and the Democrats preserve the status quo for the wealthy.  Democrats need to fix this ...

4. Perfect example.  It makes a case for some kind of simplification of government, introduced with a general benefit... but maybe not a UBI.  The Democrats have to play the politics ...

5. "Far Left" in Americaspeak means pushing for reparations and transgender in bathrooms.  It's f***ed.  Huey Long, LBJ, and FDR were big, loud, FAR LEFT populists.  They need a new Bill Clinton who:

1) Doesn't molest his staff
2) Is not a neoliberal



Offline segnosaur

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Re: The Joe Biden Thread
« Reply #724 on: February 04, 2021, 10:06:23 am »
1. My theory as to why the democrats dominated politics in the early 20th century was that it was partially due to what they delivered:
-public services like electricity
-social safety net
-regulation to curtail the excesses of banking and speculation and bring stability
Actually, republicans held the white house for 6 terms in the first half of the 20th century. Democrats held it for 7 terms (which, admittedly is more than the republicans, but not exactly "dominating".)

(ETA: I should also point out that the political environment was quite different back then... back then, the republicans often had the greatest appeal to african american voters, "evangelical voting blocks" were less of a thing, etc.)

And even if people liked the social programs back then, it was a very different period in history. Back then, there were fewer media outlets, information was a lot more tightly controlled, etc. Now, you have 24 hour cable shows, internet sites, and twitter, all available to push narratives that can have no basis in reality. Had all those things been available back in the 1930s, instead of people praising FDRs "New deal", you would have half the country screaming about how his programs are "on the road to communism" and he is in a wheelchair because he is really a cyborg under the control of Stalin.
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3. The Democrats also achieved #1 by demonizing the wealthy.  Lately I have been closely looking at the posts for the craziest Trump supporters and there is a distinct anti-wealth sentiment behind a LOT of it.  I have even read people who seem to think that the Republicans are the party of the working man (sic) and the Democrats preserve the status quo for the wealthy.  Democrats need to fix this ...
But that's the thing about the MAGAchud... some may be "anti-weatlh", but they voted for the republicans, the people that passed the "tax cuts for Millionaires" act when Trump was president.

Its this logical disconnect that Republicans have managed to turn into success.

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Re: People not understanding ACA and Obamacare are the same thing
4. Perfect example.  It makes a case for some kind of simplification of government, introduced with a general benefit... but maybe not a UBI.  The Democrats have to play the politics ...
Government is complex. Not really sure if that sort of "simplification" is possible.
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5. "Far Left" in Americaspeak means pushing for reparations and transgender in bathrooms.  It's f***ed.  Huey Long, LBJ, and FDR were big, loud, FAR LEFT populists.
But that's the problem.... The republicans are doing their upmost in painting even a moderate democrat as a "radical far-left commie". Even Biden and Hillary Clinton (who were very moderate) got tarred with the same brush.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2021, 10:09:41 am by segnosaur »

Offline Black Dog

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Re: The Joe Biden Thread
« Reply #725 on: February 04, 2021, 10:14:33 am »
You would think people would vote for politicians who "improve their lot", but people don't always make their political decisions based on rational decisions based on facts and logic. They may have problems understanding the connection between a particular government action and how it improves their own situation. They may fall for false promises from opposing politicians.

And the republicans are masters at making people vote against their own best interests.

(Look at the number of people who hate Obamacare, but are all in favor of the Affordable Care Act, not understanding that those are the same things.)

And of course the other problem.... you talked about how a far-left democrat senator could appeal to voters who "aren't politically engaged"... The problem is, those voters who aren't engaged are the type that would be more likely to sit out elections. Meanwhile, the republicans would be using the image of the "radical commie-democrat" to whip their base of evangelicals and alt-right fan boys into a frenzy... and they WOULD vote.

For something like COVID relief, I think people understand getting a cheque in the mail just fine Trump understood that, but the Dems can't even do that without means testing or grovelling for Republican support. Forgiving student loans, single payer healthcare, childcare benefits are other examples and poll well across the board. Make those things happen and campaign on them.

As for non-voters vs engaged hyperpartisans, the solution is to give people a reason to vote for you (see above) while making it easier for them to do so: a national voting holiday, universal ID, same day registration etc.

Offline Black Dog

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Re: The Joe Biden Thread
« Reply #726 on: February 04, 2021, 10:17:32 am »
But that's the problem.... The republicans are doing their upmost in painting even a moderate democrat as a "radical far-left commie". Even Biden and Hillary Clinton (who were very moderate) got tarred with the same brush.

Given that, why even engage it? Let them name call while you focus on policy and solving problems.

Offline Michael Hardner

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Re: The Joe Biden Thread
« Reply #727 on: February 04, 2021, 02:44:15 pm »
Actually, republicans held the white house for 6 terms in the first half of the 20th century. Democrats held it for 7 terms (which, admittedly is more than the republicans, but not exactly "dominating".)

They dominated from 1932 to 1952 right ?  I didn't know about the Republican dominance before that, but prior to the depression is almost prehistory for me and American politics.

Quote

(ETA: I should also point out that the political environment was quite different back then... back then, the republicans often had the greatest appeal to african american voters, "evangelical voting blocks" were less of a thing, etc.)

And even if people liked the social programs back then, it was a very different period in history. Back then, there were fewer media outlets, information was a lot more tightly controlled, etc. Now, you have 24 hour cable shows, internet sites, and twitter, all available to push narratives that can have no basis in reality. Had all those things been available back in the 1930s, instead of people praising FDRs "New deal", you would have half the country screaming about how his programs are "on the road to communism" and he is in a wheelchair because he is really a cyborg under the control of Stalin.But that's the thing about the MAGAchud... some may be "anti-weatlh", but they voted for the republicans, the people that passed the "tax cuts for Millionaires" act when Trump was president.

This period of history is something I have studied quite a bit, including media.

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Government is complex. Not really sure if that sort of "simplification" is possible.But that's the problem.... The republicans are doing their upmost in painting even a moderate democrat as a "radical far-left commie". Even Biden and Hillary Clinton (who were very moderate) got tarred with the same brush.

Complexity of government helps those who have money to navigate it.

Offline Black Dog

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Re: The Joe Biden Thread
« Reply #728 on: February 04, 2021, 03:26:56 pm »
Complexity of government helps those who have money to navigate it.


I mean look at how they're handling the COVID relief:

1. Turning the promised $2,000 cheques into $1,400.
2. "Targeting" the cheques based on income from 2019 tax returns so that anyone was doing fine before the pandemic will get no COVID relief payment even if they lost everything as a result o fth epandemic, while anyone doing fine now who wasn't in 2019 will get money.

In meme form, this is what this looks like:



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Offline Squidward von Squidderson

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Re: The Joe Biden Thread
« Reply #729 on: February 04, 2021, 04:36:47 pm »

I mean look at how they're handling the COVID relief:

1. Turning the promised $2,000 cheques into $1,400.
2. "Targeting" the cheques based on income from 2019 tax returns so that anyone was doing fine before the pandemic will get no COVID relief payment even if they lost everything as a result o fth epandemic, while anyone doing fine now who wasn't in 2019 will get money.


Absolutely asinine.  What abject cowards and idiots.  It’s no wonder America is such a mess when you have one party that is outright fascist and the other is downright cowardly.
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Offline Black Dog

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Re: The Joe Biden Thread
« Reply #730 on: February 04, 2021, 04:39:32 pm »
Absolutely asinine.  What abject cowards and idiots.  It’s no wonder America is such a mess when you have one party that is outright fascist and the other is downright cowardly.

I don't understand who they think this kind of thing is supposed to appeal to or benefit. Just completely up their own asses.
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Offline eyeball

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Re: The Joe Biden Thread
« Reply #731 on: February 26, 2021, 07:30:57 pm »
Well, looks like Biden isn't interested in punishing Saudi Arabia for its murder of Jamal Khashoggi. Typical American president I guess...as useless as a Canadian PM.

These are certainly halcyon days for dictators. Who knows maybe they deserve the respect they've been afforded...they're really just long suffering victims of culture cancel I guess.
« Last Edit: February 26, 2021, 07:32:44 pm by eyeball »
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Offline Michael Hardner

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Re: The Joe Biden Thread
« Reply #732 on: February 27, 2021, 06:44:00 am »
Yeah... these are the people Trump called "Marxists" .... I understand they aren't raising the minimum wage either.

Offline BC_cheque

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Re: The Joe Biden Thread
« Reply #733 on: February 27, 2021, 03:44:39 pm »
Well, looks like Biden isn't interested in punishing Saudi Arabia for its murder of Jamal Khashoggi. Typical American president I guess...as useless as a Canadian PM.

These are certainly halcyon days for dictators. Who knows maybe they deserve the respect they've been afforded...they're really just long suffering victims of culture cancel I guess.


After reading Obama's Promised Land, I came to realise that so much of American foreign policy cannot be changed.  He discussed the issue regarding withdrawing from Iraq, closing Guantanamo and during the fall of Mubarak in Egypt.  What he wanted to do as a human being and what he could do as POTUS weren't always in sync. 

I hate MBS with a passion and I am not defending Biden on this, but after reading Obama's book, I know to take American foreign policy with a grain of salt.  A lot of the time they don't have much choice.

Offline BC_cheque

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Re: The Joe Biden Thread
« Reply #734 on: February 27, 2021, 03:55:41 pm »
2. "Targeting" the cheques based on income from 2019 tax returns so that anyone was doing fine before the pandemic will get no COVID relief payment even if they lost everything as a result o fth epandemic, while anyone doing fine now who wasn't in 2019 will get money.

The BC government got a lot of criticism for doing the same thing.  They made an election promise about giving everyone COVID relief money but ended up basing it on 2019 income which may or may not be relevant in the following year.

I didn't see an issue with it personally.  They set the threshold quite high so pretty much everyone other than 1-2% ers got something.  The way I see it, if you're in the top 2% in 2019 a one time payment of $1K isn't going to make much of a difference in your life whether or not you still have a job.

Much ado about nothing IMO.