Author Topic: The Donald Trump Thread  (Read 150841 times)

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Offline kimmy

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Re: The Donald Trump Thread
« Reply #855 on: September 30, 2017, 01:45:21 pm »
It's a recognition of human nature. I've seen countless videos of violent police interaction with people - especially blacks, but not only them. There are damned few where the civilian was polite and cooperative and was subjected to violence.

And calling Chris Rock's statement support of an 'extrajudicial execution' is kind of an exaggeration, don't you think?

Here's the message I was reacting to... and I have bolded the portion I was addressing:
He's a wack job, just to begin with. And his 'stand' is specifically about police killing Black criminals, which most of us right wingers aren't all that sympathetic to.

"if you see the red light in your rear view mirror, STOP IMMEDIATELY! Because everyone knows, if the police have to come get you, they're bringing an ass whooping with them."  - Chris Rock

When you say that, I imagine you're probably picturing somebody getting shot while fleeing a robbery with a gun in his hand. And I get that.  There are situations when force is fully justified.

The problem I have with your comment is that it equally describes situations like the death of Freddie Gray-- a guy  who was a criminal, but also a guy who was shackled hand and foot and locked inside the back of a police van at the time the fatal injuries were inflicted upon him. Or the death of Robert Dziekanski, or any number of other situations where police got away with killing somebody with the most minimal of justifications.


My point about BLM is the same as in the cite in post #780, which pointed out that the only reason more Blacks are shot - percentage wise - than Whites is more Blacks are involved in violent crime - percentage wise - than whites.

There IS a problem with police training in the US and in Canada. They are taught to 'take command' and they are far more militaristic than they need to be or used to be. They are often far quicker to grab people instead of talking to them. They feel threatened much more easily, and when threatened go for their guns too quickly. But this is a universal issue, not a Black rights issue. Some shootings are definitely unjustified, and I say it when I see it. The Walter Scott shooting is probably the most famous involving Black Americans, but the shooting of Justine Damond was even more outrageous and indefensible, and didn't cause any riots because she was white.

For the most part I actually agree with what you're saying here.  I don't think police kill people because they're racists, I think they do it because they're not good at their job.  I don't think they get away with killing people because the system is racist, I think they get away with killing people because they cover up for each other, destroy evidence whenever possible, and do their level best to make sure that their buddies are never held responsible for anything, and they have a powerful union that will go to the wall to protect them as well.

 -k
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Offline Hal 9000

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Re: The Donald Trump Thread
« Reply #856 on: September 30, 2017, 02:09:07 pm »
If people were really that offended about the flag, Kid Rock would have been shot by now for wearing the flag as a wife-beater t-shirt. Turning the flag into bikini-bottoms and Speedos is more insulting to the flag than refusing to salute during the anthem.

Some people are mad at the players who did this because they feel the players are attacking America itself.  The people who have booed the players for this are the same kind of people who shouted "Love it or leave it!" at people protesting the Vietnam war or the Iraq war. These are the shallow thinkers who believe that speaking out against a policy or a problem in America is the same as denouncing America itself.


You make it sound like these folks would be willing to talk about this issue if only those darned football players would stop insulting the flag. The truth is that those people aren't booing because they want to have that conversation in some other venue at some other time, they are booing because they don't want to have that conversation, period.   People have been trying to have this conversation for years, and the only time it ever actually comes to the fore is when somebody creates a controversy too big to ignore.  Riots in Ferguson? Ok, let's talk... just please stop destroying the city.  Riots in Baltimore? Ok, let's talk... just please stop destroying the city.  Athletes protesting at football games? Ok, let's talk... just please stop destroying -- wait, what were they destroying? Nevermind, just please stop doing that, and then we can talk. The truth is they don't want to talk, they just want to go back to ignoring the problem.  The supposed indignation over the flag is just an effort to rationalize opposition to these protests. "We can't say we oppose their right to express themselves, because that would be unAmerican. We can't say that race isn't an issue in America, because that would be stupid. We need an excuse to explain why we're so mad about this."

You think these protests have alienated people who might otherwise be willing to listen to the issue.

I think these protests have angered people who would otherwise completely ignore the issue.



 -k

As I said, it's all about the the "how", not necessarily the "what".  NFL fans believe, and you clearly disagree, that it is the game that brings Americans together.  They refuse to let it be held hostage to politics - that is what they're saying. 

"You say you'll change the constitution
Well, you know
We all want to change your head
You tell me it's the institution
Well, you know
You'd better free your mind instead
But if you go carrying pictures of Chairman Mao
You ain't going to make it with anyone anyhow"

 - John Lennon



Offline kimmy

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Re: The Donald Trump Thread
« Reply #857 on: September 30, 2017, 02:37:29 pm »
As I said, it's all about the the "how", not necessarily the "what".  NFL fans believe, and you clearly disagree, that it is the game that brings Americans together. 

I don't think NFL fans are a monolith. But I agree... those who are mad about this just want the players to shut up.

They refuse to let it be held hostage to politics - that is what they're saying. 

But they didn't seem to mind it being politicized when the US armed forces paid the league and the teams to hold "support the troops!" ceremonies during games.

 -k
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Offline SirJohn

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Re: The Donald Trump Thread
« Reply #858 on: September 30, 2017, 02:48:12 pm »
Very good post.

Re the quote above, I would say the issue is deeper than ignoring it, they outright deny it and blame black people for getting themselves killed.

I don't even participate in this debate anymore because it infuriates me so much when I read that it's ok to kill innocent black people because some other black people commit crimes.

Maybe you should learn to read less of your own ideological views into what people write. No one has said its okay to kill 'innocent' black people. I pointed out that people at large are a lot less concerned about what happens to criminals than to other people. If you disagree with this say so. I pointed out that of all the cases I've seen video on or heard about virtually every single one involved, not innocent black people but people telling armed cops to go **** themselves, and fighting to not be arrested. Do you deny this? If so say so. I'm sure you must have a lot of examples of innocent Black people just calmly walking along when some slavering bastard of a cop walks up and shoots them in the head.

"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline SirJohn

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Re: The Donald Trump Thread
« Reply #859 on: September 30, 2017, 03:08:30 pm »
The problem I have with your comment is that it equally describes situations like the death of Freddie Gray-- a guy  who was a criminal, but also a guy who was shackled hand and foot and locked inside the back of a police van at the time the fatal injuries were inflicted upon him. Or the death of Robert Dziekanski, or any number of other situations where police got away with killing somebody with the most minimal of justifications.

Let me make it clearer then. There are gross violations of people's human rights all over the world every day, many of them absolutely horrific and against entirely innocent men, women and children. In the context of that, as a TV viewer not exposed personally to any of it, am I supposed to get upset that a lifelong criminal got bounced around in the back of a police van and died after resisting arrest? Do I think that's the way police should act? **** no. If you want to google Robert  Dzeikanzski on that other site I think I made my opinion of those cops very clear on multiple occasions. Admittedly, I had more sympathy for a bewildered polish guy than a criminal who ran from police, but in neither case did I or would I defend the cops involved. I don't think they intended to kill these two guys, mind you, but their behaviour was still unprofessional and led to death. In a more obvious case, the Sammy Yatim shooting in Toronto, I had more interest/indignation because it was here in Ontario, and I made my opinion clear of the idiot cop who shot him too. He was not an innocent, but probably had severe mental issues, and the shooting was entirely unnecessary.


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For the most part I actually agree with what you're saying here.  I don't think police kill people because they're racists, I think they do it because they're not good at their job.

I think it usually happens because of the way they're trained. For example, police training is very, very firm on the concept that if anyone with a weapon of any kind, such as a knife, a bat, a pipe, a pair of scissors, anything that can kill or seriously injure gets within 20 feet, you shoot them. Furthermore, police use of force training focuses on noting the telltale signs of violence in a person, threatening gestures and movements, face, tone, on controlling the situation, and on firearms use. There is some training in unarmed combat, but very little. There is NO training in how to deal with an assailant armed with any sort of weapon because you're supposed to shoot them.

And police are constantly taught and trained to be on edge, to be alert for imminent attack. They are, in other words, taught to be paranoid, and then given a gun. And we're surprised when they occasionally shoot someone we'd rather they not have shot?

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I don't think they get away with killing people because the system is racist, I think they get away with killing people because they cover up for each other, destroy evidence whenever possible, and do their level best to make sure that their buddies are never held responsible for anything, and they have a powerful union that will go to the wall to protect them as well.

There is some of that. But it's also that when it comes to a jury of middle class people who consider police their protectors its very easy to put themselves into the police situation - in most cases - and wonder if they'd shoot too. And if they wonder, then they're likely to not convict. That's especially true if the person shot was clearly some sort of criminal or resisting arrest.

Remember, nobody in any job fails to make mistakes. Cops are in jobs where they're going to make mistakes. And that's particularly so when violence is involved. So a lot of people are willing to cut them some slack in most situations. Neither the Sammy Yatim case, nor the Robert Dziekanski case such situations for me. Nor is the Justine Damond case.
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline Hal 9000

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Re: The Donald Trump Thread
« Reply #860 on: September 30, 2017, 03:15:06 pm »
I don't think NFL fans are a monolith. But I agree... those who are mad about this just want the players to shut up.

But they didn't seem to mind it being politicized when the US armed forces paid the league and the teams to hold "support the troops!" ceremonies during games.

 -k

Wrong again!  That's exactly what they are.  That's what fans are in every sport.  It's especially true in terms of football, NFL and College.  Look at soccer in England or Scotland.  Cities like Manchester and Glasgow (among others) have 2 teams and the fans absolutely hate each other, but when they are playing for their country, they become "monolithic" England fans.  You can say the same thing about hockey in Canada. 

NFL is the top dog in the USA, maybe North America.  Fans of one team when at a game, don't care about politics, religion, race or anything else about the person next to them except that they're cheering the same team.  They bond over the common enemy - that being the other team (and their fans).  Fans for the most part want the players to hate each other too - until at least the end of the game, then everybody can rejoin "life".  That's the way it is; and if that changes, it ruins the NFL system.  When the players try to force this change, they're messing with they system.  Players shouldn't divide fans into race, they shouldn't preach they're disgust with the police or the current president. 

Now, one could say "they're doing this for unity", but is it?  Is it unity when players try to turn fans against police?  Is it unity to claim that NOT supporting the players is an act of racism?  Is it unity to protest the anthem/flag that so many fans believe strongly about, that they have suffered for or had family die for?  I know the cynic in you thinks it's a joke or manipulation, and being Canadian, I can see why.  However, to dismiss this as a bunch of brainwashed rubes is wrong, there is much more going on here that speaks to the social side of Americans - sports gives them unity already, It's Monday to Friday that needs changing - not Sunday!

Offline Omni

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Re: The Donald Trump Thread
« Reply #861 on: September 30, 2017, 03:21:48 pm »
Maybe you should learn to read less of your own ideological views into what people write. No one has said its okay to kill 'innocent' black people. I pointed out that people at large are a lot less concerned about what happens to criminals than to other people. If you disagree with this say so. I pointed out that of all the cases I've seen video on or heard about virtually every single one involved, not innocent black people but people telling armed cops to go **** themselves, and fighting to not be arrested. Do you deny this? If so say so. I'm sure you must have a lot of examples of innocent Black people just calmly walking along when some slavering bastard of a cop walks up and shoots them in the head.

The fact you put quotes around innocent when referring to Black people pretty well sums up your position. As has been pointed out to you numerous times, let's let the courts decide who are criminals before they are penalized.

Offline Hal 9000

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Re: The Donald Trump Thread
« Reply #862 on: September 30, 2017, 03:29:23 pm »
The fact you put quotes around innocent when referring to Black people pretty well sums up your position. As has been pointed out to you numerous times, let's let the courts decide who are criminals before they are penalized.

When a person resists arrest and/or starts fighting a cop for possession of his gun, they stop being considered innocent.   

Offline SirJohn

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Re: The Donald Trump Thread
« Reply #863 on: September 30, 2017, 03:52:24 pm »
When a person resists arrest and/or starts fighting a cop for possession of his gun, they stop being considered innocent.

Agreed. As I've said before several times, very, very few people are shot while NOT resisting arrest. And if you're resisting arrest you're automatically a criminal.
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline Omni

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Re: The Donald Trump Thread
« Reply #864 on: September 30, 2017, 04:22:36 pm »
When a person resists arrest and/or starts fighting a cop for possession of his gun, they stop being considered innocent.

And when a cop shoots a 12 year old Black child playing in the park who happens to have a toy, or a Black man reaches for his DL when asked to present it to a cop while he's parked at a gas pump and gets shot, or when an unarmed Black man is arrested, shackled, and then thrown into the back of a paddy wagon with no seat belt and is then driven around wikdly until he sustains enough injury to kill him, who the **** stops being innocent then? Or is it just your view that if it's a Black man and a white cop it must be the Black's fault? No wonder NFL players take a knee.
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Offline SirJohn

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Re: The Donald Trump Thread
« Reply #865 on: September 30, 2017, 04:50:48 pm »
And when a cop shoots a 12 year old Black child playing in the park who happens to have a toy, or a Black man reaches for his DL when asked to present it to a cop while he's parked at a gas pump and gets shot, or when an unarmed Black man is arrested, shackled, and then thrown into the back of a paddy wagon with no seat belt and is then driven around wikdly until he sustains enough injury to kill him, who the **** stops being innocent then? Or is it just your view that if it's a Black man and a white cop it must be the Black's fault? No wonder NFL players take a knee.

All of which happens without regard to race. It's not a racial issue. The only people who want to make it a racial issue are Black activists and the Russians.
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum
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Offline Hal 9000

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Re: The Donald Trump Thread
« Reply #866 on: September 30, 2017, 06:14:58 pm »
And when a cop shoots a 12 year old Black child playing in the park who happens to have a toy, or a Black man reaches for his DL when asked to present it to a cop while he's parked at a gas pump and gets shot, or when an unarmed Black man is arrested, shackled, and then thrown into the back of a paddy wagon with no seat belt and is then driven around wikdly until he sustains enough injury to kill him, who the **** stops being innocent then? Or is it just your view that if it's a Black man and a white cop it must be the Black's fault? No wonder NFL players take a knee.

Dzikanski (sorry for the misspell) was white, I know of a few FN's as well as whites who have been shot and killed in Canada - most of which I disagree with.  Also, If twice as many whites are shot as blacks, it would stand to reason that the same proportion of inadvertent or wrongful shootings happen to white people - as in the Aussie woman from Minnesota.  I certainly don't want to excuse wrongful deaths at the hands of the police, and believe me, I know first hand of police brutality.  The point I'm making is that it's a circumstance thing, and by proportion, police are called to situations involving blacks at a higher proportion than whites, meaning that the offhand chance of a unfortunate police encounter is higher among blacks than whites. 

I'll also add that when we talk of this issue, we're generally talking "nation wide", where if you break it down by regions (urban/suburban) the picture becomes even more clear.   

Offline Omni

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Re: The Donald Trump Thread
« Reply #867 on: September 30, 2017, 07:12:26 pm »
Dzikanski (sorry for the misspell) was white, I know of a few FN's as well as whites who have been shot and killed in Canada - most of which I disagree with.  Also, If twice as many whites are shot as blacks, it would stand to reason that the same proportion of inadvertent or wrongful shootings happen to white people - as in the Aussie woman from Minnesota.  I certainly don't want to excuse wrongful deaths at the hands of the police, and believe me, I know first hand of police brutality.  The point I'm making is that it's a circumstance thing, and by proportion, police are called to situations involving blacks at a higher proportion than whites, meaning that the offhand chance of a unfortunate police encounter is higher among blacks than whites. 

I'll also add that when we talk of this issue, we're generally talking "nation wide", where if you break it down by regions (urban/suburban) the picture becomes even more clear.

Police, especially in the US have demonstrated many times they do not seem to have an ability to de-escalate a situation. Dash cams have often demonstrated the opposite. That seems to me to go to their lack of training. Isuspect also that there are a lot of cops who shouldn't be cops. To quite Plato, "those who seek power are often unsuited to wield it"

Offline JMT

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Re: The Donald Trump Thread
« Reply #868 on: September 30, 2017, 07:37:53 pm »
All of which happens without regard to race. It's not a racial issue. The only people who want to make it a racial issue are Black activists and the Russians.

Of course it's a racial issue.  These things don't happen to white people.  They aren't things we have to worry about.
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Offline Hal 9000

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Re: The Donald Trump Thread
« Reply #869 on: September 30, 2017, 07:43:42 pm »
Of course it's a racial issue.  These things don't happen to white people.  They aren't things we have to worry about.

Your certitude indicates you've spent a lot of time thinking about this...so, maybe you can answer a couple questions.

How do you explain the discrepancy of male:female police shooting victims?
How do you explain the discrepancy of below poverty:above poverty police shooting victims?
How do you explain the discrepancy of inner city:suburban police shooting victims?