Author Topic: The Donald Trump Thread  (Read 151091 times)

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Offline kimmy

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Re: The Donald Trump Thread
« Reply #810 on: September 28, 2017, 09:35:08 am »
NASCAR which Trump likes to point to for its patriotism was down 17% last year.

so much for that narrative.

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Offline Hal 9000

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Re: The Donald Trump Thread
« Reply #811 on: September 28, 2017, 11:04:45 am »
What's wrong about what I said?

Ok, offer a few examples.

If we were talking about blocking intersections, or taking over libraries so that people can't study, or halting somebody else's parade, or taking over the stage at the Jazz Festival, then I'd agree with you 100%. I think that stuff alienates people who would be inclined to listened.

But kneeling during the anthem?  I think that people who are mad about that are mad about his message.

The NFL helped create this problem in the first place by agreeing to promote phony patriotism in exchange for cash from the Department of Defense.  If you're going to politicize your product, you have only yourself to blame when others don't agree with the politics your product has aligned with.

 -k

All this proves is that you can't look beyond your own nose.  You want everyone to care about what you care about, yet you look these people in the face and call them stupid, fools, uneducated rubes...deplorable.  Patriotism may be a joke to you, I know it's phoney and a joke to lefties who take freedom and the western way of life for granted, but for many people it's deadly serious.  Many of the causes that the left want to promote get lost when you/they start burning, stomping on, spitting on...or otherwise disrespecting the flag.  If you refuse to understand why veterans and families of veterans are patriotic, how can you expect them to see your point of view?  If you/they want to a serious discussion, showing contempt for the flag is not really a good starting point.   

Offline Michael Hardner

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Re: The Donald Trump Thread
« Reply #812 on: September 28, 2017, 11:21:40 am »
NASCAR which Trump likes to point to for its patriotism was down 17% last year.

Pssst.  All sports are losing audience...

Offline Omni

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Re: The Donald Trump Thread
« Reply #813 on: September 28, 2017, 11:22:51 am »
All this proves is that you can't look beyond your own nose.  You want everyone to care about what you care about, yet you look these people in the face and call them stupid, fools, uneducated rubes...deplorable.  Patriotism may be a joke to you, I know it's phoney and a joke to lefties who take freedom and the western way of life for granted, but for many people it's deadly serious.  Many of the causes that the left want to promote get lost when you/they start burning, stomping on, spitting on...or otherwise disrespecting the flag.  If you refuse to understand why veterans and families of veterans are patriotic, how can you expect them to see your point of view?  If you/they want to a serious discussion, showing contempt for the flag is not really a good starting point.   

Racism against non white Americas is a deterioration of the very freedom you speak of. And the first amendment provides a way to point that out.  Sounds like you want to add to the problem.

Offline SirJohn

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Re: The Donald Trump Thread
« Reply #814 on: September 28, 2017, 11:38:57 am »
The notion that the cops should be able to act as an extrajudicial execution squad is pretty opposite to the kind of conservatism I thought you stood for.

 -k

It's a recognition of human nature. I've seen countless videos of violent police interaction with people - especially blacks, but not only them. There are damned few where the civilian was polite and cooperative and was subjected to violence.

And calling Chris Rock's statement support of an 'extrajudicial execution' is kind of an exaggeration, don't you think?

My point about BLM is the same as in the cite in post #780, which pointed out that the only reason more Blacks are shot - percentage wise - than Whites is more Blacks are involved in violent crime - percentage wise - than whites.

There IS a problem with police training in the US and in Canada. They are taught to 'take command' and they are far more militaristic than they need to be or used to be. They are often far quicker to grab people instead of talking to them. They feel threatened much more easily, and when threatened go for their guns too quickly. But this is a universal issue, not a Black rights issue. Some shootings are definitely unjustified, and I say it when I see it. The Walter Scott shooting is probably the most famous involving Black Americans, but the shooting of Justine Damond was even more outrageous and indefensible, and didn't cause any riots because she was white.
« Last Edit: September 28, 2017, 11:41:13 am by SirJohn »
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline SirJohn

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Re: The Donald Trump Thread
« Reply #815 on: September 28, 2017, 11:42:53 am »
I didn't make any comment about 'levels' of bravery.  You dismissed the bravery and risk of protesting by saying they're headstrong and naive.  And I pointed out that such comments aren't usually made about soldiers.  It seems to me you're looking for ways to discount the protest that aren't necessary to the discussion.

I don't even know what your point is. My point is that the protest is illegitimate, but that even if it was legitimate doing it at work is something that would get you fired anywhere else. As someone else pointed out, if one of the peanut vendors in the stands wore a Trump hat he'd be ordered to take it off, and fired if he refused. Businesses are not in the business of offending their customers.
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline SirJohn

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Re: The Donald Trump Thread
« Reply #816 on: September 28, 2017, 11:44:44 am »
We people believe in freedom of speech. It's actually one of the things that soldiers fought for.

Everyone has the right to freedom of speech. That does not imply you can spout off at work. No employer anywhere allows that.
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline Hal 9000

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Re: The Donald Trump Thread
« Reply #817 on: September 28, 2017, 11:45:10 am »
We're clearly talking about 2 different issues here; one I have some amount of support for and the other I don't support at all.  I don't think I'm all that different from millions of other people.  You people want full support of both issues, for what logical reason, no one can answer.  Sorry, but how one approaches a situation directly correlates with how much success you'll have. 

Offline SirJohn

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Re: The Donald Trump Thread
« Reply #818 on: September 28, 2017, 11:47:49 am »
When my family moved to Ottawa from the west, sometime around 1998, I was quite taken aback at the degree of overt nationalism on display. I hadn't seen anything like that when I lived in Edmonton or Vancouver or Victoria.  I don't see such nationalism in Kim City, or when I visit Edmonton or Vancouver. Except briefly during the Vancouver Olympics, when everybody was all amped up about all the gold medals. I can't speak for the rest of Ontario, but I definitely think Ottawa is different from the west in terms of nationalism.

Chretien's Liberals didn't give a **** about western Canada. The patriotism propaganda was aimed at Quebec, and the Ottawa area got a pile of it simply because we have a lot of French, are the capital, and are on the borders of Quebec. Actually, if you listen to the government the capital is called Ottawa-Gatineau, and they do their best to ship a lot of jobs and money into Gatineau.
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline Omni

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Re: The Donald Trump Thread
« Reply #819 on: September 28, 2017, 11:50:43 am »
I don't even know what your point is. My point is that the protest is illegitimate, but that even if it was legitimate doing it at work is something that would get you fired anywhere else. As someone else pointed out, if one of the peanut vendors in the stands wore a Trump hat he'd be ordered to take it off, and fired if he refused. Businesses are not in the business of offending their customers.

Apparently they do allow free speech at the nfl since a number of owners have locked arms with their players during the anthem.

Offline Hal 9000

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Re: The Donald Trump Thread
« Reply #820 on: September 28, 2017, 11:50:51 am »
It's a recognition of human nature. I've seen countless videos of violent police interaction with people - especially blacks, but not only them. There are damned few where the civilian was polite and cooperative and was subjected to violence.

And calling Chris Rock's statement support of an 'extrajudicial execution' is kind of an exaggeration, don't you think?

My point about BLM is the same as in the cite in post #780, which pointed out that the only reason more Blacks are shot - percentage wise - than Whites is more Blacks are involved in violent crime - percentage wise - than whites.

There IS a problem with police training in the US and in Canada. They are taught to 'take command' and they are far more militaristic than they need to be or used to be. They are often far quicker to grab people instead of talking to them. They feel threatened much more easily, and when threatened go for their guns too quickly. But this is a universal issue, not a Black rights issue. Some shootings are definitely unjustified, and I say it when I see it. The Walter Scott shooting is probably the most famous involving Black Americans, but the shooting of Justine Damond was even more outrageous and indefensible, and didn't cause any riots because she was white.

Was she the woman shot by the "pet project" black immigrant cop?  Not much coverage, I don't know why!  I seem to remember a blurb on the TV about her though!  Was her family ever invited to the UN, Whitehouse or DNC? 

Offline SirJohn

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Re: The Donald Trump Thread
« Reply #821 on: September 28, 2017, 11:51:01 am »
d

NASCAR which Trump likes to point to for its patriotism was down 17% last year. There is more going on here. America is addicted to football and basketball. Football and basketball are addicted to black players. So it's a matter of entertain me but keep your black mouth shut.

What makes you think the response would be any different if some white players were doing the same damn thing?
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline SirJohn

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Re: The Donald Trump Thread
« Reply #822 on: September 28, 2017, 11:54:01 am »
Apparently they do allow free speech at the nfl since a number of owners have locked arms with their players during the anthem.

The owners are between a rock and a hard place. Many of their highly skilled players are Black, and the mass media is wholly on whatever side Trump is not on. At the same time, when boos are raining down from the stands in your own stadium you'd be wise to stop bringing politics into your business.
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline Omni

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Re: The Donald Trump Thread
« Reply #823 on: September 28, 2017, 12:02:23 pm »
What makes you think the response would be any different if some white players were doing the same damn thing?

Except some white players are doing the same thing. I guess you don't have to be black to understand the issue.

Offline cybercoma

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Re: The Donald Trump Thread
« Reply #824 on: September 28, 2017, 12:03:56 pm »
We're clearly talking about 2 different issues here; one I have some amount of support for and the other I don't support at all.  I don't think I'm all that different from millions of other people.  You people want full support of both issues, for what logical reason, no one can answer.  Sorry, but how one approaches a situation directly correlates with how much success you'll have.
There aren't two issues. There's one issue that black football players were bringing attention to. That's it. This other "issue" you're talking about is bullshit made up by racists to dismiss black activism, just like "all lives matter," and you've bought it hook, line, and sinker.