Author Topic: The Donald Trump Thread  (Read 52708 times)

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Offline Boges

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Re: The Donald Trump Thread
« Reply #6330 on: October 21, 2020, 08:10:34 am »
I'd be all in favour of indexing minimum wage to cost of living or something.  The problem is, that we need to get back to policies that make businesses compete for labour.  Biden wants big increases in immigration, to increase the pool of labour.  All that does is depress wages, for everyone.  Labour needs to be turned from a huge supply, to more of a demand.  You don't do that by flooding the market with low skilled labour.  It's counter productive.

And how, pray tell, do you grow the economy to fuel these increased wages if not let people in?

The birth rate sure ain't doing it.

Offline segnosaur

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Re: The Donald Trump Thread
« Reply #6331 on: October 21, 2020, 11:48:52 am »
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Policy? Like Trump's policy that saw a huge spike in the deficit in order to give tax breaks to millionaires? (And that was before Covid-19 started causing problems.)

Like Trump's big health care plan... no, wait a second, he didn't actually have one. Now of course millions of people in the U.S. lack health care. Oh well, too bad, so sad.

But at least we have Trump's economic record. Except we don't.... because job and employment growth actually slowed under Trump (compared to the way things were going under Obama).

But at least Trump managed to keep the coal miners employed. Except he didn't. Ooops, too bad, so sad.

Yup, I'm convinced... if you want a stagnating economy where people are dying because they can't get health care, Trump is the way to go! At least the white supremacists are happy. That's the most important thing, isn't it?
No.  Big deficits came from increases in spending...
Governments need to spend money to provide certain fundamentals.... the military to defend the country, police and fire fighters, roads and bridges, etc. As such, taxes need to be collected in order to pay for those things.

The deficit was decreasing under Obama. It started increasing again right after the republicans passed the "give millionaires a lot more money", aka the Tax Cuts and Jobs act. Republicans claimed the tax cuts would pay for themselves. But they didn't. The deficit went up as a result, since there was less revenue (approximately a $275 billion shortfall in revenue in the year after the tax cuts came into effect). Claiming it was "spending" that was causing it is bunk. The U.S. is not an anarchist state.

See: https://www.brookings.edu/policy2020/votervital/did-the-2017-tax-cut-the-tax-cuts-and-jobs-act-pay-for-itself/
 
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Under Trump the economy saw record unemployment, particularly for blacks and hispanics.
First of all, any such 'success' trump had in unemployment was largely continuing a trend that began under Obama... The Obama administration actually saw HIGHER growth in employment, in the stock market, and in GDP than Trump did.

Secondly... you seem to be fixated on what you think Trump did, rather than the way things are now. The unemployment rate in the U.S. right now is 7.9%, which is a lot higher than it was at the end of Obama's tenure. Now, I am sure you will claim "but... covid!" Yes, covid had an impact. But the reason why it had such a big impact is because Trump bungled the pandemic response.

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Under Obama, income inequality grew.
You do realize that under Trump, income inequality actually hit record highs not seen in half a century, right?

From: https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/2019/09/26/income-inequality-highest-over-50-years-census-bureau-shows/3772919002/
The gap between the haves and have-nots in the United States grew last year to its highest level in more than 50 years of tracking income inequality, according to Census Bureau figures. Income inequality in the United States expanded from 2017 to 2018...
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  At least he's not actively trying to put them out of jobs, like Democrats.
Actually the democrats are realists.

Back in 2016, Clinton told coal miners about retraining. It made sense.... industry had changed, and those coal mining jobs weren't coming back. Trump made a bunch of empty promises... he would "bring back coal", even though it was a dying technology.
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Now Biden wants to do that to frackers.
Biden has been quite clear... he will not shut down existing fracking sites. His plan is to actually increase the use of alternative energy so that fracking is no longer necessary.

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/biden-ban-fracking/

Given the fact that Fracking has known problems (water and air contamination among them), some think some caution about the use of the technology is warranted.

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Nah, you're convinced by lack of facts.
Actually you seem to be the one that comes into these threads, posts a bunch of bunk, then disappears.
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The economy was anything but stagnating.  The economy was booming.
From: https://www.latimes.com/politics/story/2019-10-09/despite-trump-vow-manufacturing-in-recession
During President Trumpís first two years in office, his standing with many voters was buoyed by a surge in manufacturing that helped create millions of jobs and undergirded the whole U.S. economy. But today, manufacturing has plunged into recession and is threatening to pull down other sectors

From: https://www.forbes.com/sites/chuckjones/2020/02/01/trumps-economic-growth-is-slower-than-obamas-last-3-years/#6899911c4fed
Under Trump business investment has turned negative the past three quarters and is negative or essentially flat when the impact of inventory changes are taken into account....Obamaís last three years had better growth than Trumpís three years...

Yup, certainly sounds like Trump has done a fantastic job of keeping the economy going.

Oh, and by the way, those articles were from BEFORE covid-19 became a problem. Since Trump's screw ups are a big part of the problem why the pandemic is hitting the U.S. so hard, Trump deserves much of the blame for the fact that employment and GDP growth has slowed.

Offline segnosaur

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Re: The Donald Trump Thread
« Reply #6332 on: October 21, 2020, 12:10:44 pm »
I'd be all in favour of indexing minimum wage to cost of living or something.  The problem is, that we need to get back to policies that make businesses compete for labour.  Biden wants big increases in immigration, to increase the pool of labour.  All that does is depress wages, for everyone.
First of all, it is not universally accepted that immigration depresses wages. While there are some studies that show it does, there are also studies that show there is little or no effect.

For example, from: https://davidcard.berkeley.edu/papers/mariel-impact.pdf
...immigrants increased the Miami labor force by 7%, and the percentage increase in labor supply to less-skilled occupations and industries was even greater because most of the immigrants were relatively unskilled....influx appears to have had virtually no effect on the wages or unemployment rates of less-skilled workers

(Again, I recognize that its one study among many, some of which are contradictory, but it means the issue isn't quote as clear cut as you make it out to be.)

Even if there is a negative effect on wage growth, the effect of other factors (such as a destructive trade war that put people out work, a pandemic that was not properly handled, and a failure to address health care which has left people struggling to deal with medical issues) is a much more significant factor on people's actual standard of living.

Lastly, there are issues at play here other than wage growth... younger immigrants might provide skills that may be lacking in the United States. Even unskilled workers can provide a benefit... they are usually younger (so they have a longer period of time where they are productive, allowing them to support older generations), and the greater worker base can increase the GDP.

From: https://budgetmodel.wharton.upenn.edu/issues/2016/1/27/the-effects-of-immigration-on-the-united-states-economy
Has the surge in immigration since 1970 led to slower wage growth for native-born workers? Academic research does not provide much support for this claim. The evidence suggests that when immigration increases the supply of labor, firms increase investment to offset any reduction in capital per worker, thereby keeping average wages from falling over the long term. Moreover, immigrants are often imperfect substitutes for native-born workers in U.S. labor markets. That means they do not compete for the same jobs and put minimal downward pressure on nativesí wages...Immigration generally also improves the governmentís fiscal situation, as many immigrants pay more in taxes over a lifetime than they consume in government services.

« Last Edit: October 21, 2020, 12:17:21 pm by segnosaur »

Offline waldo

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Re: The Donald Trump Thread
« Reply #6333 on: October 21, 2020, 12:16:09 pm »
big dustUp at the Trump 60 minutes taping! Trump's feefees were all hurt to the point he walked out of the interview; apparently Trumpy did not take kindly to all the questions about Covid-19, his response/statements concerning the attempted kidnapping of the Michigan Governor, his attacks against Dr. Fauci, etc.! Since then Trump and surrogates have been attacking the 60 minutes reporter at length.

of course, back in 2018, the everSmartTrump openly stated his "strategy" (to the same 60 minutes reporter) in attacking reporters/media - such a braniac!  ;D




Offline waldo

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Re: The Donald Trump Thread
« Reply #6334 on: October 21, 2020, 11:38:05 pm »
member Shady, about your boy Trumpy who self-claims to be 'very smart... and a stable genius':

- had a secret Chinese bank account; paid ~$200,000 taxes to China... yet only paid $750 taxes to the U.S. IRS

- owes an undisclosed source $421 million

- has over $900 million in loans coming due over the next 4 years

- has added $3,900,000,000,000 to the U.S. federal deficit


Offline segnosaur

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Re: The Donald Trump Thread
« Reply #6335 on: October 21, 2020, 11:41:21 pm »
big dustUp at the Trump 60 minutes taping! Trump's feefees were all hurt to the point he walked out of the interview; apparently Trumpy did not take kindly to all the questions about Covid-19, his response/statements concerning the attempted kidnapping of the Michigan Governor, his attacks against Dr. Fauci, etc.! Since then Trump and surrogates have been attacking the 60 minutes reporter at length.
The fact that Trump is threatening to post the entire 60 minutes interview himself might be the strangest part of this story, since its hard to think of any footage from the interview that might have made Trump look good.

Trump advisor: The interview has you crapping your pants
Trump: Post the entire interview
Trump advisor: But that shows you crapping your pants and then crying after.
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Offline Shady

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Re: The Donald Trump Thread
« Reply #6336 on: October 22, 2020, 07:17:03 am »
member Shady, about your boy Trumpy who self-claims to be 'very smart... and a stable genius':

- had a secret Chinese bank account; paid ~$200,000 taxes to China... yet only paid $750 taxes to the U.S. IRS

- owes an undisclosed source $421 million

- has over $900 million in loans coming due over the next 4 years

- has added $3,900,000,000,000 to the U.S. federal deficit


Omg, a global businessman has global bank accounts!  Stop the presses.  Btw, when did private information start to be characterized as secret?  Regardless, you still canít accept the fact that Trump has better policies.  You Trump Derangementers operate completely on non policy levels.  Do you think his bank account erases secret Biden Ukraine and China shady business dealings?
Anti-herd is the new anti-vaxx.  Sweden did it right.

Offline Shady

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Re: The Donald Trump Thread
« Reply #6337 on: October 22, 2020, 07:19:34 am »
Apparently Trump was tired. 

That this got leaked from the White House (again) shows that Trump doesn't really engender a lot of loyalty.
Yep.  Heís an outsider.  The D.C. establishment has been at war with him for 4 years.  If only heíd go along with their globalist policy interests and their foreign wars.  He garner much more support from inside the beltway.
Anti-herd is the new anti-vaxx.  Sweden did it right.

Offline waldo

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Re: The Donald Trump Thread
« Reply #6338 on: October 22, 2020, 07:25:24 am »
Yep.  Heís an outsider.  The D.C. establishment has been at war with him for 4 years.  If only heíd go along with their globalist policy interests and their foreign wars.  He garner much more support from inside the beltway.

how's that Swamp draining coming along?  ;D


Offline segnosaur

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Re: The Donald Trump Thread
« Reply #6339 on: October 22, 2020, 09:12:49 am »
Omg, a global businessman has global bank accounts!  Stop the presses.  Btw, when did private information start to be characterized as secret?
It is thought that having a president that exhibits excessive secrecy (such as the way Trump is attempting to hide his tax records, or his hidden bank account) leaves the potential for him to be compromised..... they may change policy to benefit himself (or those he does business dealings with) rather than benefitting the electorate. Other presidents have been much more open about their financials.

Of course, much of this might have been less of an issue if the MAGAchuds weren't trying to make such a big deal over Biden's supposed friendliness with China. So, Trump supporter's hypocrisy possibly plays a big part of this.
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Regardless, you still canít accept the fact that Trump has better policies.
Probably because he DOESN'T have better policies.

I have given evidence that economic growth had slowed down once Trump became President, with at least some of economy (manufacturing) going into recession. And this was all before Covid-19 (where Trump's policies have made things much worse... higher death rate, worse economic impact.)

By the way, notice that word I used.... "Evidence"? I have provided multiple links (from reputable sources) to back up my point. You, on the other hand, just engage in the whole "Throw bunk against the wall and run away when you are shown to be wrong" tactic.
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Do you think his bank account erases secret Biden Ukraine and China shady business dealings?
It hasn't been established that any of the dealings (either with Joe or Hunter Biden) actually were shady.

Much less evidence that Biden's dealing were shady than evidence that Trump's dealings have been shady.


Offline MH

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Re: The Donald Trump Thread
« Reply #6340 on: October 22, 2020, 11:52:06 am »
Yep.  Heís an outsider.  The D.C. establishment has been at war with him for 4 years.  If only heíd go along with their globalist policy interests and their foreign wars.  He garner much more support from inside the beltway.

I don't know if he would need to go along with them as much as understand the landscape and how we got here.  The 'globalists' were/are neoliberal capitalists who are pushing multinational corporate interests and economic interests.

For Donald to vilify them for political reasons is one thing, but it seems he actually THINKS his political farts smell like roses.  In other words, he actually believes that the people behind trade policy are stupid, that you can trade war your way into a trade surplus etc.

How's that going ?  It is not. 

You are correct that Donald is despised as an outsider but the globalists are, in the end, his backers and his party.  If it's not hypocrisy for him to deny that, then it's ignorance. 

Offline Montgomery

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Re: The Donald Trump Thread
« Reply #6341 on: October 22, 2020, 12:02:58 pm »
Trump represented hope for a lot of very desperate Americans and that hope is still alive in the minds of his followers. But Trump is never going to deliver for the ordinary American who is being cheated out of a piece of the American pie.

But also in fairness to Trump's people, the brighter ones know that Biden isn't going to deliver anything meaningful either. So they will cling to Trump and regardless of who wins the election, they will spend another 4 years in personal economic misery.

There's little doubt that America has slid far down the list on 'quality of life' for the average citizen. There's nothing left for them to do but wave old glory and pretend they are doing o.k.

It was believed afterward that the man was a lunatic, because there was no sense in what he said. ~M.T.
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Offline the_squid

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Re: The Donald Trump Thread
« Reply #6343 on: October 22, 2020, 03:02:12 pm »
I learned that Trumpís rallies are bigger now than they ever were.  Very important information. 

I also learned that pre-existing conditions will be protected.  How?  They will always be protected.  How?  Always. 

COVID?  Saved millions of people.  How?  By saving millions.

It was a perfect interview. 

Offline Montgomery

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Re: The Donald Trump Thread
« Reply #6344 on: October 22, 2020, 05:19:31 pm »
There's very little doubt that Trump intends to seel the people out on healthcare. He really has no choice if he expects big money to be on his side.
It was believed afterward that the man was a lunatic, because there was no sense in what he said. ~M.T.