Author Topic: The Donald Trump Thread  (Read 52714 times)

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Offline Montgomery

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Re: The Donald Trump Thread
« Reply #6255 on: October 10, 2020, 11:10:21 am »
No doubt Biden is a better choice but he won't be the 'fix' that's needed for America. So even if Trump is defeated and eliminated, their country won't change much for the long-suffering people. And then why would anybody think that the rabid right element will stop their mission to kill black people.

Biden represents the establishment American way and anybody who listens to him should know. But the positive side of a Biden win is in Bernie working from within the party to change it to become a socially responsible party for the people.

Biden's popularity is not huge and if it was then Trump's support should be much lower than it still is.

Do we as Canadians really care? The negatives of Trump are mostly in their domestic policy. Trump could prove to be better for Canada because he won't honour any promises to his people when trade relations and profiting for the very wealthy class are his real priorities. He would be better for Canada than Biden and almost certainly better for China.

The disclaimer confirmation can work to protect him from being responsible in that event but it can't protect him for the infections he's already been responsible for. For that reason it can be seen as an admission of guilt as well as an acknowledgment of the danger.
It was believed afterward that the man was a lunatic, because there was no sense in what he said. ~M.T.

Offline segnosaur

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Re: The Donald Trump Thread
« Reply #6256 on: October 10, 2020, 11:06:59 pm »
No doubt Biden is a better choice but he won't be the 'fix' that's needed for America.
while Biden isn't exactly a far left progressive candidate, he's not a "republican in democrat clothing" either. He does have plans o make the wealthy pay more in taxes. he does have plans to address climate change. He does have plans to provide health care to more Americans.
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Biden represents the establishment American way and anybody who listens to him should know. But the positive side of a Biden win is in Bernie working from within the party to change it to become a socially responsible party for the people.
I guess the question is, will Sanders actually stick around the Democratic party this time. Remember, he's been sitting as an independent senator for years, and only becomes a Democrat when he wants to hijack the party for his own purposes. (Hmmmm... I wonder if he ever thought that if he actually, you know, BECAME a democrat, he might have had enough support within the party to win the primaries, rather than saying "boo! Hiss! You're evil! Now support me while I run for president".
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Do we as Canadians really care? The negatives of Trump are mostly in their domestic policy. Trump could prove to be better for Canada because he won't honour any promises to his people when trade relations and profiting for the very wealthy class are his real priorities. He would be better for Canada than Biden and almost certainly better for China.
Ummm... no he wouldn't.

Trump has given us a trade war, with tariffs slapped on things like steel and aluminium (even after we signed our free trade deal). One of his closet advisors has made some pretty stupid comments that have affected Canada/US relations.

Then there are also the policies and actions that Trump has that aren't directly related to Canada, but will harm us regardless... his covid response will mean that the disease will continue to affect the world for much longer than it should (which affects Canada, since we share so much trade as well as a common border). His environmental policies (e.g. global warming denial) will impact all countries in the world, since carbon dioxide does not stop a the American borders. And his financial incompetence risks damaging the American economy, which will end up dragging the whole global economy down with it.
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Offline Montgomery

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Re: The Donald Trump Thread
« Reply #6257 on: October 11, 2020, 11:38:34 am »
while Biden isn't exactly a far left progressive candidate, he's not a "republican in democrat clothing" either. He does have plans o make the wealthy pay more in taxes. he does have plans to address climate change. He does have plans to provide health care to more Americans.I guess the question is, will Sanders actually stick around the Democratic party this time. Remember, he's been sitting as an independent senator for years, and only becomes a Democrat when he wants to hijack the party for his own purposes. (Hmmmm... I wonder if he ever thought that if he actually, you know, BECAME a democrat, he might have had enough support within the party to win the primaries, rather than saying "boo! Hiss! You're evil! Now support me while I run for president". Ummm... no he wouldn't.

On any and all issues Biden will do what he needs to do to stay popular. If addresing AGW is important to Americans then Biden will respons accordingly. If it doesn't become important then he won't.

A decent health care plan for all Americans is far off on the horizon because the popular demand overall is lacking.

Trump has given us a trade war, with tariffs slapped on things like steel and aluminium (even after we signed our free trade deal). One of his closet advisors has made some pretty stupid comments that have affected Canada/US relations. [/quote]

Everything Trump does on foreign relations are only for his own re-election interests. If he's elected he will be a different person altogether.

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Then there are also the policies and actions that Trump has that aren't directly related to Canada, but will harm us regardless... his covid response will mean that the disease will continue to affect the world for much longer than it should (which affects Canada, since we share so much trade as well as a common border). His environmental policies (e.g. global warming denial) will impact all countries in the world, since carbon dioxide does not stop a the American borders. And his financial incompetence risks damaging the American economy, which will end up dragging the whole global economy down with it.

Trump knows he's lost the battle on Covid but he has to continue his stance until he's elected. After that he would come around to being mainstream sane on Covid. Trump wants to be on the right side of the debate on Covid.

As to Biden? You need to understand that bringing about social change for the people requires a break from the establishment American way. I see no indication that Biden could be the one to upset that apple cart. There's too much big money involved for him and more obviously the Democrat senators and House members. The only glimmer of hope for a breakout for America is in Bernie. But Bernie could do enough convincing of the people so that the Dems and the people come to demand Biden make the necessary changes.
It was believed afterward that the man was a lunatic, because there was no sense in what he said. ~M.T.


Offline segnosaur

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Re: The Donald Trump Thread
« Reply #6259 on: October 12, 2020, 02:58:53 am »
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while Biden isn't exactly a far left progressive candidate, he's not a "republican in democrat clothing" either. He does have plans o make the wealthy pay more in taxes. he does have plans to address climate change. He does have plans to provide health care to more Americans.I guess the question is, will Sanders actually stick around the Democratic party this time. Remember, he's been sitting as an independent senator for years, and only becomes a Democrat when he wants to hijack the party for his own purposes. (Hmmmm... I wonder if he ever thought that if he actually, you know, BECAME a democrat, he might have had enough support within the party to win the primaries, rather than saying "boo! Hiss! You're evil! Now support me while I run for president". Ummm... no he wouldn't.
On any and all issues Biden will do what he needs to do to stay popular.
Biden is a moderate democrat. That means he is on the political left, but not on the fringes. That doesn't necessarily mean he says things ONLY because they are popular. It could just mean he has selected policies that a lot of people believe in.

You don't have to be a radical to be committed to your policies.
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If addresing AGW is important to Americans then Biden will respons accordingly. If it doesn't become important then he won't.
Actually Biden has actually been fighting for action on global warming as far back as the 1980s, bringing in one of the first bills in congress to address climate changes. And this was done long before Global warming was considered a significant issue in the political landscape.

https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2019/may/08/joe-biden/was-joe-biden-climate-change-pioneer-congress-hist/
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Trump has given us a trade war, with tariffs slapped on things like steel and aluminium (even after we signed our free trade deal). One of his closet advisors has made some pretty stupid comments that have affected Canada/US relations.
Everything Trump does on foreign relations are only for his own re-election interests.
Why are you assuming that?

We know multiple things about Trump: That he is a narcissist (being unwilling to admit any sort of failure or mistake, even if doing so would benefit him), that is an incompetent moron who doesn't understand economics or foreign policy (the man has a string of business failures, including multiple casinos, where the business model is as simple as "customers come in, give money, and leave") and that in the rare occasions where he actually listens to the advice of others, the people he listens to are themselves either corrupt or incompetent. His decisions on trade or foreign policy are more likely to be due to those factors than they are by some sort of political calculation.

Slapping tariffs on aluminium from Canada did not benefit him politically. (I doubt many of his supporters were even aware of them.) In fact, they probably hurt his political situation (given retaliatory tariffs and the general economic harm of trade barriers.) 
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If he's elected he will be a different person altogether.
We heard exactly the same thing in 2016. "Sure Trump is crude/brash when campaigning, but once elected he will pivot and become presidential'. But instead of getting "Trump the statesman" the U.S. got "Trump the clown". Why expect that it will somehow be different if he is re-elected in 2020?

Rather than him saying "Now the pressure for re-election is over, I can adopt different policies (such as reversing tariffs), his narcissism will make it impossible for him to change his policies (since that would imply he did something wrong in the first place) and he is more likely to double down, leaving the tariffs in place (possibly even increasing them) because eliminating them would suggest he made a mistake in imposing them in the first place.
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Then there are also the policies and actions that Trump has that aren't directly related to Canada, but will harm us regardless... his covid response will mean that the disease will continue to affect the world for much longer than it should (which affects Canada, since we share so much trade as well as a common border). His environmental policies (e.g. global warming denial) will impact all countries in the world, since carbon dioxide does not stop a the American borders. And his financial incompetence risks damaging the American economy, which will end up dragging the whole global economy down with it.
Trump knows he's lost the battle on Covid but he has to continue his stance until he's elected. After that he would come around to being mainstream sane on Covid. Trump wants to be on the right side of the debate on Covid.
It was Trump's incompetence that has left America with such a high casualty rate in the first place. Why exactly do you assume that after re-election, he will magically become competent?

Time and time again, we have seen Trump do things which not only harm America's response to Covid-19, but also harm himself politically.
Frankly, the suggestion that Trump is doing what he does for political reasons is giving him far too much credit. He is just not that smart.
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As to Biden? You need to understand that bringing about social change for the people requires a break from the establishment American way. I see no indication that Biden could be the one to upset that apple cart.
The assumption of course is that the only way to bring about change is to "upset the apple cart". I personally think that's the wrong attitude to take. Positive change can also come about through gradual directed change. The U.S. didn't need riots in the streets to make people more accepting of gay marriage, or legalization of marijuana.

« Last Edit: October 12, 2020, 03:04:50 am by segnosaur »
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Offline Omni

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Re: The Donald Trump Thread
« Reply #6260 on: October 12, 2020, 03:25:27 am »
Trump has demonstrated so many times so far that he is nothing more than a lying, narcissist, racist with extremely poor business skills that he really ought not to be sitting in the WH. Will Americans wake up, or not? Currently I'm so glad not to be one.

Offline Montgomery

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Re: The Donald Trump Thread
« Reply #6261 on: October 12, 2020, 12:55:28 pm »

Biden is a moderate democrat. That means he is on the political left, but not on the fringes. That doesn't necessarily mean he says things ONLY because they are popular. It could just mean he has selected policies that a lot of people believe in.

We disagree on that to begin with. I maintain that Biden is totally US establishment and that is not leftist by definition in any country except the US. Please try to at least understand this as being my position, because it's important. And I'm not saying you have to agree.


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You don't have to be a radical to be committed to your policies.Actually Biden has actually been fighting for action on global warming as far back as the 1980s, bringing in one of the first bills in congress to address climate changes. And this was done long before Global warming was considered a significant issue in the political landscape.

I won't dispute that but I would suggest that the US is a renegade country with it's lack of support on climate change and the politics of the people will dictate to Biden. The US establishment status quo doesn't support sociallly responsible government.

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https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2019/may/08/joe-biden/was-joe-biden-climate-change-pioneer-congress-hist/Everything Trump does on foreign relations are only for his own re-election interests.
Why are you assuming that?

I assume that because I know of nothing that can't be categorized as being that. Refute with examples if you have an interest in the argument.

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We know multiple things about Trump: That he is a narcissist (being unwilling to admit any sort of failure or mistake, even if doing so would benefit him), that is an incompetent moron who doesn't understand economics or foreign policy (the man has a string of business failures, including multiple casinos, where the business model is as simple as "customers come in, give money, and leave") and that in the rare occasions where he actually listens to the advice of others, the people he listens to are themselves either corrupt or incompetent. His decisions on trade or foreign policy are more likely to be due to those factors than they are by some sort of political calculation.

I would agree that's correct. But I think you miss my point in that Trump is clever enough to tell lies for political gain during the run-up to the election, then do something different. Specifically, demonize China on the virus, trade relations, and other issues because his base is motivated by hating outsiders and now especially the Chinese. But that attitude and position is not in sync with the US overall agenda of big business that's only concerned with more profits. In fact, none of Trump's base of ordinary people are in sync with what must become Trump's priorities. He's simply a corporate psychopath who is lying to the ignorant little people.

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Slapping tariffs on aluminium from Canada did not benefit him politically. (I doubt many of his supporters were even aware of them.) In fact, they probably hurt his political situation (given retaliatory tariffs and the general economic harm of trade barriers.)  We heard exactly the same thing in 2016. "Sure Trump is crude/brash when campaigning, but once elected he will pivot and become presidential'. But instead of getting "Trump the statesman" the U.S. got "Trump the clown". Why expect that it will somehow be different if he is re-elected in 2020?

I would suggest that retaliatory tariffs were beyond the capability of Trump's base to comprehend. Trump gets benefit out of any move against any country, due to the kneejerk mentality of his base. You should watch an hour of one of his rallies to see just what he's doing!

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Rather than him saying "Now the pressure for re-election is over, I can adopt different policies (such as reversing tariffs), his narcissism will make it impossible for him to change his policies (since that would imply he did something wrong in the first place) and he is more likely to double down, leaving the tariffs in place (possibly even increasing them) because eliminating them would suggest he made a mistake in imposing them in the first place.

Consider that what you said there. Trump changing policies is not inconsistent with his narcissism. It's not admitting that he made mistakes. But you are right about a narcissist not  being able to admit to mistakes. And so Trump has reversed many of his stupid positions while never admitting to a mistake. His base happily allows him to do that and never bring those mistakes up to question. He's more than just a narcissist in that respect, but he's still consistent with being one.

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It was Trump's incompetence that has left America with such a high casualty rate in the first place. Why exactly do you assume that after re-election, he will magically become competent?

Yes, Trump is responsible for most of the deaths due to Covid! But you've wrongly accused me of saying that Trump will beome competent. What Trump will do is get himself on the side of being right without admitting to any mistakes. His position on downplaying Covid were strictly for his political purposes and those purposes won't demand anything of him after he's elected. And furtheromre, his base will justify everything he's done with some excuse that lets him off the hook. Something perhaps as simple as just claiming that everything he did was for the sake of not scaring or alarming the American people.

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Time and time again, we have seen Trump do things which not only harm America's response to Covid-19, but also harm himself politically.
Frankly, the suggestion that Trump is doing what he does for political reasons is giving him far too much credit. He is just not that smart.The assumption of course is that the only way to bring about change is to "upset the apple cart". I personally think that's the wrong attitude to take. Positive change can also come about through gradual directed change. The U.S. didn't need riots in the streets to make people more accepting of gay marriage, or legalization of marijuana.

We don't disagree on anything concerning Trump's criminal performance that really matters. When I talk about upsetting the apple cart I mean departing for the US establishment American way, status quo. And that's where Biden comes into this conversation.

Biden won't bring about meaningful 'social' change to the US. They were corrupt and broken before Trump and there's no reason to think Biden is a gift from heaven. I really doubt that he will even be able to bring about change in health care that would at least come close to that which is taken for a right by the world's leading capitalist first world countries.

America needs a Bernie but the Dem party rejected Bernie and hijacked his chances twice because that party is afraid that the phony commie, socialist label couldn't be a winner in their country. They may have been right on that but that doesn't mean that what they really do need is a 'Bernie' who is intent on bringing about the social change they lack so desperately.

It was believed afterward that the man was a lunatic, because there was no sense in what he said. ~M.T.
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Offline Montgomery

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Re: The Donald Trump Thread
« Reply #6262 on: October 13, 2020, 12:39:46 pm »
That which must now be of great interest to their FBI/CIA/etc. is how Trump will handle a loss? A psychopath can never accept defeat and so Trump will undoubtedly react in some ways that could compromise US security abroad. For that reason Trump will have to be monitored very closely to prevent him from spilling state secrets as a part of his revenge. How that could be accomplished is an interesting question to consider.

Regardless of all the politics there is no way that Trump isn't seen as a loose cannon in the ship of US state secrets, even taken into consideration that there will be much that has been kept secret from Trump for obvious reasons. Even Pompeo will be completely aware of this possibility of Trump betraying his country and so Pompeo's loyalty to Trump will end immediately with a Trump loss.

The consequences of Trump being monitored closely and how his supporters handle that situation are really quite unimaginable!
It was believed afterward that the man was a lunatic, because there was no sense in what he said. ~M.T.

Offline Omni

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Re: The Donald Trump Thread
« Reply #6263 on: October 13, 2020, 03:45:17 pm »
I'm not an American but I don't hesitate to say that I'm concerned (maybe afraid) as to what happens if Trump loses the election as he continues to claim that if he does it will only be because of vote rigging, and therefore he won't give up the keys to the WH. While on the one hand I would enjoy seeing the Secret Service slap the cuffs on him if it comes to that, I wonder what powers he could try to invoke that might lead to some seriously scary events. His obvious narcissism will likely be the driver.

Offline Montgomery

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Re: The Donald Trump Thread
« Reply #6264 on: October 13, 2020, 06:03:51 pm »
I'm not an American but I don't hesitate to say that I'm concerned (maybe afraid) as to what happens if Trump loses the election as he continues to claim that if he does it will only be because of vote rigging, and therefore he won't give up the keys to the WH. While on the one hand I would enjoy seeing the Secret Service slap the cuffs on him if it comes to that, I wonder what powers he could try to invoke that might lead to some seriously scary events. His obvious narcissism will likely be the driver.

I think that if the police threaten to arrest him he will give up the keys. But the wild card now is on whether the police will move against Trump if he'd defeated.

Fascist states are born when the police and military take the side of a defeated candidate in an election. Or by revolution but we can probably safely say that the American people won't rise to that in the foreseeable future.
It was believed afterward that the man was a lunatic, because there was no sense in what he said. ~M.T.

Offline segnosaur

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Re: The Donald Trump Thread
« Reply #6265 on: October 13, 2020, 09:50:28 pm »
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Biden is a moderate democrat. That means he is on the political left, but not on the fringes. That doesn't necessarily mean he says things ONLY because they are popular. It could just mean he has selected policies that a lot of people believe in.
We disagree on that to begin with. I maintain that Biden is totally US establishment and that is not leftist by definition in any country except the US.
An irrelevant point. Where Biden compares to politicians in other countries does not matter, because he is a politician within the American political system.

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You don't have to be a radical to be committed to your policies.Actually Biden has actually been fighting for action on global warming as far back as the 1980s, bringing in one of the first bills in congress to address climate changes. And this was done long before Global warming was considered a significant issue in the political landscape.
I won't dispute that but I would suggest that the US is a renegade country with it's lack of support on climate change and the politics of the people will dictate to Biden.
And once again, AS I PROVIDED EVIDENCE FOR, Biden actually tried to get Congress to address climate change before it was a major political issue.
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Trump does on foreign relations are only for his own re-election interests.
Why are you assuming that?
I assume that because I know of nothing that can't be categorized as being that. Refute with examples if you have an interest in the argument.
I already gave an example... Trump's implication of tariffs that actually end up harming his election chances.

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We know multiple things about Trump: That he is a narcissist (being unwilling to admit any sort of failure or mistake, even if doing so would benefit him), that is an incompetent moron who doesn't understand economics or foreign policy (the man has a string of business failures, including multiple casinos, where the business model is as simple as "customers come in, give money, and leave") and that in the rare occasions where he actually listens to the advice of others, the people he listens to are themselves either corrupt or incompetent. His decisions on trade or foreign policy are more likely to be due to those factors than they are by some sort of political calculation.
I would agree that's correct. But I think you miss my point in that Trump is clever enough to tell lies for political gain during the run-up to the election, then do something different.
Trump is not clever in his lies at all. His lies are, more often than not, blatantly stupid.

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Specifically, demonize China on the virus, trade relations, and other issues because his base is motivated by hating outsiders and now especially the Chinese. But that attitude and position is not in sync with the US overall agenda of big business that's only concerned with more profits. In fact, none of Trump's base of ordinary people are in sync with what must become Trump's priorities. He's simply a corporate psychopath who is lying to the ignorant little people.
While Trump may want to suck up to big business, he is a moron and, frankly, is more likely to harm business than he is to help it.

There is a reason why Goldman Sachs has predicted that the economy will recover faster if the Democrats take both the white house and congress than if Trump wins.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/10/06/business/economy-election-blue-wave-goldman-sachs/index.html
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I would suggest that retaliatory tariffs were beyond the capability of Trump's base to comprehend.
It doesn't matter if his base is too stupid to understand the concept of retaliatory tariffs. But what they can comprehend is that, if you are a farmer or manufacturer who can no longer sell to Canada because of trade barriers enacted due to a Trump-inspired trade war, you will not be happy, and be less likely to support Trump.
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Trump gets benefit out of any move against any country, due to the kneejerk mentality of his base. You should watch an hour of one of his rallies to see just what he's doing!
That his base of MAGAchuds are a bunch of brain-damaged xenophobic morons who bask in stupidity is not in doubt. My point was his latest round of aluminium tariffs is not an election issue.... he's not using it to whip up his base... its just a dumb thing he did and probably forgot about.

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Yes, Trump is responsible for most of the deaths due to Covid! But you've wrongly accused me of saying that Trump will beome competent. What Trump will do is get himself on the side of being right without admitting to any mistakes.
Ummm.... not sure if you understand this... but if you think trump will "get himself on the side of being right", then that DOES suggest that you think he will become competent.

Trump is simply too dumb, too incompetent to know what the "right side" is.
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His position on downplaying Covid were strictly for his political purposes and those purposes won't demand anything of him after he's elected.
Uhhhh.... no.

Many of his screw-ups had nothing to do with his political position. Removing embedded CDC scientists from China (who could have helped provide a warning) did not provide political benefit. Disbanding the group that would have coordinated the pandemic response did not provide political benefit. Giving the task of obtaining necessary equipment to his son-in-law did not provide political benefit.

Yet he did all of them.
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And furtheromre, his base will justify everything he's done with some excuse that lets him off the hook. Something perhaps as simple as just claiming that everything he did was for the sake of not scaring or alarming the American people.
The fact that his base is gullible enough to accept his excuses does not mean that his initial actions were done strictly for political purposes. He is incompetent, he screws up, that will not change post-election.
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Biden won't bring about meaningful 'social' change to the US.
Under Obama (who certainly wasn't a "far left" radical) we saw liberalization of drug laws, expansion of gay rights, implementation of financial regulations to protect consumers, worked to increase solar and wind power usage, and the appointment of 2 judges to the supreme court. All positive changes in the right direction.

I see no reason to suspect Biden would not follow the same path.

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They were corrupt and broken before Trump and there's no reason to think Biden is a gift from heaven.
He doesn't have to be a "gift from heaven". He just has to be a decent politician who 1) has a good chance at defeating Trump (which he certainly seems to have) and 2) a set of policies that will have a positive impact (which he appears to have).

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I really doubt that he will even be able to bring about change in health care that would at least come close to that which is taken for a right by the world's leading capitalist first world countries.
And do you think Sanders would do any better?

For better or worse, the majority of Americans prefer a system that covers pretty much everyone, but provides private options. i.e. Sanders' plan is, simply, not popular (at least once people look at its details). Do you think any sort of radical health care reform would get through?

Better chance at a Biden plan being accepted than a Sanders' plan.
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America needs a Bernie
No, actually they don't.

What the U.S. needs is a good 2-3 terms where moderate left-of-center Democrats control the white house and congress. Enough time to make significant positive changes. And the fact is, moderation wins elections. A radical left wing politician like Sanders would likely 1) not be very effective (since even moderates would shy away from his reforms), and 2) probably not last long in office (since, as I pointed out, moderation wins elections).

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but the Dem party rejected Bernie and hijacked his chances twice because that party is afraid that the phony commie, socialist label couldn't be a winner in their country.
They didn't "Hijack" anything. Sanders had no expectation of electoral success. Far from it... he was an outsider who wasn't even a democrat until he decided to run for President. The 'Dems' simply said "this is not the politician and set of policies that we want to present".

If you are going to spend all your time sniping at the Democrats from the outside, don't be surprised if those same Democrats chose not to follow you into battle.
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Offline Omni

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Re: The Donald Trump Thread
« Reply #6266 on: October 14, 2020, 12:10:26 am »
Let's just hope that the American voter will do what Covid so far has failed to do.

Offline Montgomery

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Re: The Donald Trump Thread
« Reply #6267 on: October 14, 2020, 12:21:08 pm »
We disagree on that to begin with. I maintain that Biden is totally US establishment and that is not leftist by definition in any country except the US.

An irrelevant point. Where Biden compares to politicians in other countries does not matter, because he is a politician within the American political system.


None of your points strike me as significant enough to debate further with you. But you should know that I'm a Canadian and I don't favour either of their candidates.

Overall, the point you seem to be missing is that the US has fallen far behind the world's leading Capitalist countries and Biden doesn't represent enough significant change to fix their problems. There system is irreparably corrupted by big money and Biden is far from immune from caving to that.

They need a new Bernie, unless Bernie can work from the inside to inspire the people to force Biden to do what's needed. It's a longshot but amazingly at least possible.
It was believed afterward that the man was a lunatic, because there was no sense in what he said. ~M.T.

Offline waldo

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Re: The Donald Trump Thread
« Reply #6268 on: October 14, 2020, 01:40:13 pm »

Offline MH

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Re: The Donald Trump Thread
« Reply #6269 on: October 14, 2020, 02:11:54 pm »


Georgia.... Georgia...