Author Topic: The Donald Trump Thread  (Read 151526 times)

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Offline SirJohn

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Re: The Donald Trump Thread
« Reply #600 on: August 21, 2017, 06:31:01 pm »
No, its only an issue of free speech if the government tries to shut you down.

Really? If a mob of fascists attacks an anti-racist gathering and shuts it down while the police do nothing that's okay with you?

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The racists held their rally in a public park. They took actions (chanting racist slogans) that were likely to get noticed.

So what? They have a right to express their opinions and beliefs.

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No, I'm not. I think people should be able to hold whatever disgusting views they want... whether its that one race is better than another, or that pepsi is better than coke, or that the leafs are better than the Senators. But that doesn't mean those views (and those holding them) shouldn't be soundly criticized and condemned at every opportunity.

Sure. But criticizing is one thing, shutting them down through violence is another. Anyone who supports free speech would be opposed to that.

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Yes it does. The distastefulness of the message may not be the ONLY factor, but it should be considered.

We don't need free speech laws to protect speech which is popular. Or as Oliver Wendell Holmes said "If there is any principle of the Constitution that more imperatively calls for attachment than any other it is the principle of free thought — not free thought for those who agree with us but freedom for the thought that we hate.”
 
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Well, as others have pointed out, the violence by the "left" appeared to be non-existent or at least extremely limited. The violence on the right ended up with a woman run down with a car. So even ignoring the message itself, how exactly are those to situations analogous?

The violence from the Nazis was just as limited, except for one individual who went looney. If it hadn't of been we'd have heard of a lot of people hospitalized from being attacked by them.
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline SirJohn

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Re: The Donald Trump Thread
« Reply #601 on: August 21, 2017, 06:34:18 pm »
Irrelevant. A dumb thing is dumb whether one person does it or a billion, and we should be prepared to call people out on it if their views are wrong.

I invite you, then, to tell native Canadians how stupid their cultural issues are and their continued desperate attempts to cling to a way of life from centuries past.

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Now if you had a specific issue with how people are assimilated into our country, then there might be a valid topic for discussion.Canada (and the U.S.) have a fairly low birth rate. We need immigration to help provide the population base to maintain our society.

There is no economic or logical argument in favour of our present immigration system (which will do little or nothing to redress our low birth rates), but this is not the topic to discuss it under.
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline wilber

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Re: The Donald Trump Thread
« Reply #602 on: August 21, 2017, 07:29:27 pm »
I don't see a moral equivalence here but a thug is a thug regardless of what side they are on. With the exception of the KKK, most of the white supremacist thugs were honest (or stupid) enough to show their faces. The mask wearing ANTIFA thugs are not. They don't really stand for anything except violence and are an anchor around the neck of peaceful protesters which actually helps the alt right.
"Never trust a man without a single redeeming vice" WSC

Offline Michael Hardner

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Re: The Donald Trump Thread
« Reply #603 on: August 21, 2017, 08:20:53 pm »
I really had to give this some thought, because we haven't had to face these kinds of people before.  I also had a lot of division in my friend circles as to how to handle it.  Peaceful response won out.  No antifa.  Not yet, anyway.

Offline Queefer Sutherland

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Re: The Donald Trump Thread
« Reply #604 on: August 21, 2017, 09:13:02 pm »
I should have made my position on the Charlottesville thing more clear maybe.  Here it goes, & it's really simple:  obey the law.

Everyone who broke the law, you're a criminal & a jerk, I don't care your political leanings.  If you hit a bunch of people with your car, you're a really really lowlife criminal. If you protested "without a permit", who cares?? It's your legal constitutional right to protest these racist scumbags.  If you incited racist hate but not violence through speech, you're within your free speech limits legally but you're still a scumbag.  If you're Trump & you didn't condemn these racists outright from the very beginning that's your legal right but you're still scumbag.
"Nipples is one of the great minds of our time!" - Bubbermiley

Offline SirJohn

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Re: The Donald Trump Thread
« Reply #605 on: August 22, 2017, 10:55:05 am »
I really had to give this some thought, because we haven't had to face these kinds of people before.  I also had a lot of division in my friend circles as to how to handle it.  Peaceful response won out.  No antifa.  Not yet, anyway.

Not yet? Kluckers and Nazis have been marching around since before you were born. Nothing has changed. There aren't more of them. They don't have more power. They're not causing more damage. Their beliefs aren't spreading. Just because the national media has suddenly discovered their existence and is breathlessly pumping out story after story about them does not mean they're any more of a factor in anyone's daily life or any more of a threat to peace and security than they were twenty or thirty or fifty years ago. Less, in fact. I can't even remember when there was a march by these people in Canada. The only thing growing on the right wing of Canada is anti-immigration groups, spawned by growing immigration  which is perceived by many to be out of control.
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline cybercoma

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Re: The Donald Trump Thread
« Reply #606 on: August 22, 2017, 01:28:37 pm »
If there were KKK/Nazis there advocating genocide or violence
You do know what Nazis and the KKK are, yeah? If so, what do you mean "if"?

Offline cybercoma

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Re: The Donald Trump Thread
« Reply #607 on: August 22, 2017, 01:33:05 pm »
I don't know how much more obvious I can be. If someone gets to stop the Nazis from speaking their offensive views, then they get to stop you too. Maybe it's because you aren't capable of seeing the forest for the trees. You zero in on Nazis and ignore the broader importance of freedom of speech. Or maybe you just don't have a problem with repressing other people's freedom of speech because you're convinced yours will never be repressed. But there is no way to write a law to repress the Nazis which will not leave you open to being repressed too if different people get into power. I'm not willing to take the chance just because of a small bunch of loonies and a somewhat larger group of offended snowflakes.
I don't see it because it doesn't work that way. We bombed and killed Nazis in WWII, does that mean the government is going to bomb my neighbourhood next? You're pushing a slippery slope fallacy and expecting me to find it insightful. I don't because I don't think political views are the same as genocidal ones, neither should you or anyone else if you're the legal definition of a "reasonable" person.

Offline cybercoma

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Re: The Donald Trump Thread
« Reply #608 on: August 22, 2017, 01:37:28 pm »
The Nazis are a pretty easy group to focus on. Their murderous beliefs are right there on the surface and aimed at particular groups. The Communists and Marxists, on the other hand, have always proclaimed a universal brotherhood. That hasn't stopped them from wantonly slaughtering millions who get in their way, or from instituting some of the world's most vile and repressive states.
Show me any writing from Marx or even Engels that advocates genocide. You're confusing authoritarian despotism for Communism. The difference is that the stated aims if Nazis and white supremacists are violent and genocidal. It takes a bastardization if Marx or complete ignorance of his historical observations to even remotely proclaim that the purpose of Communism is to "slaughter millions."
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Offline Michael Hardner

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Re: The Donald Trump Thread
« Reply #609 on: August 22, 2017, 03:43:24 pm »
Not yet? Kluckers and Nazis have been marching around since before you were born.

You don't know how old I am.  I could be 100.

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Nothing has changed. There aren't more of them. They don't have more power. They're not causing more damage. Their beliefs aren't spreading.

Which is why I said 'not yet'.

 Just because the national media has suddenly discovered their existence and is breathlessly pumping out story after story about them does not mean they're any more of a factor in anyone's daily life or any more of a threat to peace and security than they were twenty or thirty or fifty years ago. Less, in fact. I can't even remember when there was a march by these people in Canada. The only thing growing on the right wing of Canada is anti-immigration groups, spawned by growing immigration  which is perceived by many to be out of control.
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Offline SirJohn

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Re: The Donald Trump Thread
« Reply #610 on: August 22, 2017, 04:12:59 pm »
I don't see it because it doesn't work that way. We bombed and killed Nazis in WWII, does that mean the government is going to bomb my neighbourhood next? You're pushing a slippery slope fallacy and expecting me to find it insightful. I don't because I don't think political views are the same as genocidal ones, neither should you or anyone else if you're the legal definition of a "reasonable" person.

You're ignoring the fact that advocating genocide is illegal in both the US and Canada. That's why they don't do that. You might think (reasonably) that that's what they want, but they're not about to stand on a stage and call for the extermination of Jews or Blacks. Can you find such views on the internet? Sure, just as you can find lots of jihadi views on the internet. They pop up and disappear as they're taken down every day, put in place by antonymous hidden people who scurry away like roaches whenever you shine a light towards them.

The people in Charlottesville did not openly advocate genocide, any more than the mafia and hells angels, who, lets' face it are ALL criminals, openly  commit crimes, any more than Muslim extremists in the West openly call for the deaths of Jews (although some of them have been caught doing so in arabic in mosques). As long as they don't, they're allowed to get together and talk about "white pride" and the superiority of the white race and how Jews control the world under the direction of George Soros till the cows come home.

If you ban that because you 'say' they're genocidal then you can ban anyone's speech on the unproven presumption they have bad motives. And I'm certainly not going to accept the Left making decisions about what motives are unacceptable given how flexible they have always been in the use of terms like racist and hate-monger. When a left wing group can call a professor who won't use made-up gender nouns a fascist I'm not going to accept any of their accusations as legitimate without solid proof.

"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline SirJohn

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Re: The Donald Trump Thread
« Reply #611 on: August 22, 2017, 04:20:37 pm »
Show me any writing from Marx or even Engels that advocates genocide. You're confusing authoritarian despotism for Communism.

Gee, how could I do that? It wouldn't be because every Communist government in history has been run by an authoritarian despot, would it? And I can see that same angry attitude among leftists in the Canada. They're so damned certain that what they want is for the betterment of mankind, especially the downtrodden, that they are infuriated at anyone who opposes their policies. After all, if you want to do something which will be a wonderful thing and help the downtrodden, and someone opposes that, why they must want to hurt the downtrodden! That makes them evil! Enemies of the people! And what happens to enemies of the people when the revolution comes?

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It takes a bastardization if Marx or complete ignorance of his historical observations to even remotely proclaim that the purpose of Communism is to "slaughter millions."

But the Nazis will tell you their policies are for the betterment of mankind, that getting rid of defective elements will improve the quality of the species and society will be more enlightened and more peaceful, with less crime and everyone working together. Wouldn't that be nice!?

The purpose of Communism is not to slaughter millions. That's just the way it always seems to work out. Enemies of the people can't be allowed to stand in the way of forming a more perfect society, after all.
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline SirJohn

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Re: The Donald Trump Thread
« Reply #612 on: August 22, 2017, 08:31:06 pm »
You don't know how old I am.  I could be 100.

They were holding marches 100 years ago. Well, not the Nazis, but the klan.

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Which is why I said 'not yet'.



According to the Southern Poverty Law Center there were once 4 million KKK members in the US. Their estimate now is about 5000-8000. There are several nazi(ish) groups in America, the largest, the national socialists, has 400 members. In Canada, the Heritage Front had 18 members but disbanded. The media and progressives are going batshit crazy over groups who couldn't fill a moderate sized arena in the US and couldn't fill a restaurant in Canada, most of whom are all mouth.
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline BC_cheque

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Re: The Donald Trump Thread
« Reply #613 on: August 22, 2017, 08:52:14 pm »
I'm afraid not. If you read the cite it made it clear, as did the other two, that we choose people, and even places to live, based on how culturally compatible they are with our own values. Every city has those areas where people congregate because they're much alike. Ottawa has the Glebe, for example, where the precious progressives congregate. Boulder Colorado has the same reputation, as the cite points out. We wind up being friends with people who are the same economic class and have mostly the same levels of education and whose likes and dislikes tend to mirror our own. If you're a jock, who are your friends? Mostly jocks. You all love sports and go to games and watch them on TV. If you're a nerd, do you have a lot of jock friends? Probably not. If you're a progressive type, very progressive, your friends likely will be mostly of the same mentality. You probably aren't going to have a lot of devoted evangelical Christian pals. If you're gay, a lot of your friends will be gay and you'll like to live in a gay friendly area (thus gay villages in a number of cities).  If you love country music and rural life and drive a pickup truck you probably aren't going to be a progressive and won't want to live in places like the Glebe. You won't like the same music or TV shows either, won't read the same books and magazines, won't be into social media as much, if at all.

All of this is just within one society. Now when you bring in people from another society, one as vastly different as, say, Muslims, you're going to find them wanting to hang out together, too, and live in the same areas, consuming different media, going to different clubs and enjoying different things. And you're going to find a lot of Canadians not being happy living in their midst and moving out. Not because they're brown but because their whole culture is different.

See this is where you and I have had very different experiences with immigrants and integration and see what we want to see.  I know you have the Muslim neighbour who loves 'going back home' and all around you what you see is people unwilling to assimilate but my friends are from all around the world, including myself, and we're all pretty Canadianized.

I would have as much of a difficult time befriending a newly arrived immigrant from my own ethnic background as I would a newly arrived Russian or Chinese or African.  Their kids and my kids will be just fine though from what I see in my kid's classroom where they aren't at all concerned about each other's race/ethnicity.

This is why I don't agree with a Canadian values test.  I could not befriend an oil-loving immigrant-hating Albertan (sorry for the strereotype) or a Trump loving conservative American but I have friends who are franco Quebecois who believe in the same fiscal and environmental policies as myself.  Language and geography don't mean all that much.

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Offline JMT

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Re: The Donald Trump Thread
« Reply #614 on: August 22, 2017, 10:03:28 pm »
Back on topic - that is some rally tonight.