Author Topic: The Donald Trump Thread  (Read 150038 times)

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Offline segnosaur

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Re: The Donald Trump Thread
« Reply #585 on: August 21, 2017, 11:34:40 am »
But the south has developed, perhaps because they were crushed in their war, a need to believe that their history was something greater, more noble. It's become a part of their culture now, of how they see themselves.
The problem is, its a false perspective, and one that should be dropped. There was nothing 'noble' in the attempt to keep a race of people as slaves, and revisionist history on behalf of southerners (such as "it was about freedom/states rights") is all bunk that should be challenged.

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A poll taken by National Public Radio showed Americans think the monuments should remain, by more than a two to one margin. The margin was even higher among Republicans as just 6% felt they should be removed.
I hadn't heard about that poll, so I was skeptical. (I thought it might have been an online poll or something similarly non-scientific.) But its correct.. most Americans are fine with confederate monuments.

Personally though, I suspect that some people really aren't sure of exactly what the issues mean. They've fallen for the false "southern pride" narrative, and if people received more information at least some people might change their minds.

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I really don't give a **** about Nazis and klukkers. There really aren't that many of them, especially in Canada.
Keep in mind that even though there may be very few people on the fringes (i.e. who care enough to march with the nazis/KKK), we also have to consider those with milder racism... those who (for example) voted for trump because "OMG the immigrants are going to break into our homes and eat our children". By challenging the more extreme forms of racism, we will hopefully have an influence on the less extremist (but still racist) people in society.


Offline SirJohn

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Re: The Donald Trump Thread
« Reply #586 on: August 21, 2017, 11:36:33 am »
You are totally obfuscating, it's been explained again and again that the nazis are way worse and there is no comparison between the two sides.  Donald Trump is an idiot and equally idiotic are his statements on the topic.

There has been so much self-righteousness by the media on this topic. It really is getting hard to take. First, we all agree Trump is an idiot, a bundle of emotions with the self-control of a two year old. He's also ignorant and simple minded. Those who have said he's a media savvy guy know nothing about him. He's always been an idiot. This is the guy who said his daughter had great boobs and he'd love to boff her if she wasn't his daughter - on live radio. This is the guy who called up a radio station pretending to be someone else to brag about his sexual prowess with his mistress - like no one was going to recognize his voice. Trump is NOT media savvy. He's a less mature, more mean spirited version of Archie Bunker with inherited money. Everything he did and said on his TV show was scripted by someone else.

He DID unconditionally condemn racists, bigots and Nazis. His hangup seems to be the same as mine, which is that yes, they need to be condemned, but violence in the streets needs to be condemned no matter who is doing it. Note. Two issues here. A hateful mentality and belief system is one. No argument there that the Nazis are worse. Street brawls and riots, though, seem to involve two sides, both of them filled with hatred for the other side.

Were there 'good people' at the rally? It's hard to find, but my understanding is that not everyone who went was a Nazi or White Supremacist. I did catch an interview with one guy who went who said he was kind of disgusted with these people, but was in favor of free speech for everyone, and was really concerned about southern heritage.

What is Trump being so continuously denounced for? For saying there were some bad people on the other side? But there were. This is self-evident. A savvy media guy would know not to bring that up, but Trump isn't savvy about anything except higher end New York real estate.
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline SirJohn

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Re: The Donald Trump Thread
« Reply #587 on: August 21, 2017, 11:46:35 am »
Well, I agree that I like to be friends who are like me but that has nothing to do with their outward appearances.  Generally it comes down to values and lifestyle. 

I must be special too.

I'm afraid not. If you read the cite it made it clear, as did the other two, that we choose people, and even places to live, based on how culturally compatible they are with our own values. Every city has those areas where people congregate because they're much alike. Ottawa has the Glebe, for example, where the precious progressives congregate. Boulder Colorado has the same reputation, as the cite points out. We wind up being friends with people who are the same economic class and have mostly the same levels of education and whose likes and dislikes tend to mirror our own. If you're a jock, who are your friends? Mostly jocks. You all love sports and go to games and watch them on TV. If you're a nerd, do you have a lot of jock friends? Probably not. If you're a progressive type, very progressive, your friends likely will be mostly of the same mentality. You probably aren't going to have a lot of devoted evangelical Christian pals. If you're gay, a lot of your friends will be gay and you'll like to live in a gay friendly area (thus gay villages in a number of cities).  If you love country music and rural life and drive a pickup truck you probably aren't going to be a progressive and won't want to live in places like the Glebe. You won't like the same music or TV shows either, won't read the same books and magazines, won't be into social media as much, if at all.

All of this is just within one society. Now when you bring in people from another society, one as vastly different as, say, Muslims, you're going to find them wanting to hang out together, too, and live in the same areas, consuming different media, going to different clubs and enjoying different things. And you're going to find a lot of Canadians not being happy living in their midst and moving out. Not because they're brown but because their whole culture is different.
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline SirJohn

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Re: The Donald Trump Thread
« Reply #588 on: August 21, 2017, 11:52:53 am »
Poor Nazis. My heart bleeds for how much violence they have to suffer while advocating GENOCIDE.

You don't understand. We, as a society, let the Nazis have their dumb views and speak about their dumb ideas without violence so that we can have our dumb views and speak about our dumb ideas without violence.

And if you think there aren't a lot of people who think your ideas are dumb and offended by them to the point they'd like you to stop making them you're kidding yourself.
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline segnosaur

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Re: The Donald Trump Thread
« Reply #589 on: August 21, 2017, 11:59:53 am »
Were there 'good people' at the rally? It's hard to find, but my understanding is that not everyone who went was a Nazi or White Supremacist.
I'm sorry, but the rally was well publicized as a right wing "unite the right" white spremacist thing. And even if someone did show up at the rally expecting it to be about free speech, the minute they started chanting racist slogans and waving the swastika around was the minute they should have left (i.e. right away).
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I did catch an interview with one guy who went who said he was kind of disgusted with these people, but was in favor of free speech for everyone, and was really concerned about southern heritage.
Then this guy is an idiot. Probably a racist who is trying to justify his racist activities. "Oh no, I'm not a racist. I just think the statues are pretty. And ignore this nazi flag I'm carrying. And this white hood and robe I'm wearing? I'm going to a costume party after."

First of all, this has nothing to do with "free speech". Free speech is something between the government and the individual. It has nothing to do between individuals.  It is not an issue of free speech if you should say something I don't like and I decide to challenge you.

Secondly, as I have stated before, if he were really concerned about southern heritage, he'd become more knowledgable and realize that those statues are not 'historic' in any way, and were really put up to white-wash southern racism while at the same time giving the finger to black people.
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What is Trump being so continuously denounced for? For saying there were some bad people on the other side? But there were. This is self-evident. A savvy media guy would know not to bring that up, but Trump isn't savvy about anything except higher end New York real estate.
I cannot speak to every person, but I suspect the vast majority of the anti-racist crowd was peaceful, with the rather decent message "racism is wrong". On the other hand every one of the people on the nazi/KKK/racist side was a a douche bag. Every single one of them. And they all had the same repugnant message "Racism is good".

Trying to complain about "bad guys on both sides" is like Charles Manson claiming everyone is bad because hey they may have got a parking ticket! Sometimes the scale of douchebaggery is so great on one side compared to another that even mentioning problems on the other side is a sign of moral failure.

Offline SirJohn

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Re: The Donald Trump Thread
« Reply #590 on: August 21, 2017, 12:07:06 pm »
The problem is, its a false perspective, and one that should be dropped.

Maybe, but how many cultures have a false narrative about their past?
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Keep in mind that even though there may be very few people on the fringes (i.e. who care enough to march with the nazis/KKK), we also have to consider those with milder racism... those who (for example) voted for trump because "OMG the immigrants are going to break into our homes and eat our children".

And why is being against immigration a racist thing? Why are you even equating the two and linking anti-immigration to being a Nazi? Isn't that akin to calling those who believe in public health care a Communist? In other words, dumb?

There are many reasons to be against immigration as it stands, both cultural and economic. Our brainless prime minister doesn't understand that, but he's as ignorant, in his own way, as Trump, wrapped within his bubble all his life, seeing and befriending only those like him.
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline SirJohn

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Re: The Donald Trump Thread
« Reply #591 on: August 21, 2017, 12:15:45 pm »
I'm sorry, but the rally was well publicized as a right wing "unite the right" white spremacist thing.

And how often do people behave like idiots? Anyway, I'm just saying there might have been and probably someone told Trump that.

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First of all, this has nothing to do with "free speech". Free speech is something between the government and the individual. It has nothing to do between individuals.  It is not an issue of free speech if you should say something I don't like and I decide to challenge you.

If you try to hold a rally or meeting to promote or discuss your views and masses of people shut you down that's an issue of free speech.


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Trying to complain about "bad guys on both sides" is like Charles Manson claiming everyone is bad because hey they may have got a parking ticket! Sometimes the scale of douchebaggery is so great on one side compared to another that even mentioning problems on the other side is a sign of moral failure.

I disagree. You are again trying to establish that if ones views are repugnant one has no right to hold or state or promote those views. I deeply disagree. You, and the media are focusing in on how distasteful the message is when the truth is it doesn't matter how distasteful the message is. It doesn't matter how distasteful or hateful the messengers are either. The equating is not between the morality of their message and the morality of the message of those opposed to them. The equating is between their street violence and the street violence of those who sought to shut them down.

I know everyone wishes we could simply say that we can ban them from speaking their views aloud and then stop there, but that's not reality. If they are silenced, then the focus will shift to those who are on the far right but much less extreme. And after THEY are silenced, the focus will shift further to the left. The people shutting down the weekend rallies made no distinction between the people trying to hold them and Nazis, despite both groups proclaiming they wanted nothing to do with Nazis or White Supremacists. If we allow AN opinion to be silenced then ALL opinions are subject to the popularity test, and any that aren't popular will be shut down.
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline cybercoma

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Re: The Donald Trump Thread
« Reply #592 on: August 21, 2017, 12:17:54 pm »
You don't understand. We, as a society, let the Nazis have their dumb views and speak about their dumb ideas without violence so that we can have our dumb views and speak about our dumb ideas without violence.

And if you think there aren't a lot of people who think your ideas are dumb and offended by them to the point they'd like you to stop making them you're kidding yourself.
You're incredibly dim witted if you think my views are even remotely akin to advocating genocide. White supremacy is violence. Period. Violence is an appropriate response to genocidal maniacs.

Offline JMT

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Re: The Donald Trump Thread
« Reply #593 on: August 21, 2017, 12:36:25 pm »
You're incredibly dim witted if you think my views are even remotely akin to advocating genocide. White supremacy is violence. Period. Violence is an appropriate response to genocidal maniacs.

Yeah, I don't get this opposite view at all.  These people would literally kill brown people and Jews if they were allowed to do so without and repercussions.  It's not only about their 'stupid views'.

Offline segnosaur

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Re: The Donald Trump Thread
« Reply #594 on: August 21, 2017, 12:49:09 pm »
Anyway, I'm just saying there might have been...
Might have been what? A good person at the racist rally? Do you honestly think a good person would show up, see a bunch of swastikas, and still decide "this is where I should be"?
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...and probably someone told Trump that.
Even if someone told trump "there were good people on both sides", he should have rejected that notion as silly.
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If you try to hold a rally or meeting to promote or discuss your views and masses of people shut you down that's an issue of free speech.
No, its only an issue of free speech if the government tries to shut you down.

The racists held their rally in a public park. They took actions (chanting racist slogans) that were likely to get noticed. If they really wanted to JUST meet and discuss issues of how to be the bestest racist ever, they they could have selected a more private venue.
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I disagree. You are again trying to establish that if ones views are repugnant one has no right to hold or state or promote those views.
No, I'm not. I think people should be able to hold whatever disgusting views they want... whether its that one race is better than another, or that pepsi is better than coke, or that the leafs are better than the Senators. But that doesn't mean those views (and those holding them) shouldn't be soundly criticized and condemned at every opportunity.

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I deeply disagree. You, and the media are focusing in on how distasteful the message is when the truth is it doesn't matter how distasteful the message is. It doesn't matter how distasteful or hateful the messengers are either.
Yes it does. The distastefulness of the message may not be the ONLY factor, but it should be considered.

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The equating is not between the morality of their message and the morality of the message of those opposed to them. The equating is between their street violence and the street violence of those who sought to shut them down.
Well, as others have pointed out, the violence by the "left" appeared to be non-existent or at least extremely limited. The violence on the right ended up with a woman run down with a car. So even ignoring the message itself, how exactly are those to situations analogous?



Offline Queefer Sutherland

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Re: The Donald Trump Thread
« Reply #595 on: August 21, 2017, 02:19:44 pm »
Poor Nazis. My heart bleeds for how much violence they have to suffer while advocating GENOCIDE.

If there were KKK/Nazis there advocating genocide or violence they should have been arrested and charged, because threatening violence is & should be illegal.  That's how civilized civil society works:  the rule of law.  Too bad the police were next to useless, which is shameful.  Could have arrested a bunch of Nazis that day & thrown the book at them instead of firecrackers.
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Offline segnosaur

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Re: The Donald Trump Thread
« Reply #596 on: August 21, 2017, 02:22:39 pm »
Re: The "false narrative" of southern heratige///
Maybe, but how many cultures have a false narrative about their past?
Irrelevant. A dumb thing is dumb whether one person does it or a billion, and we should be prepared to call people out on it if their views are wrong.
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And why is being against immigration a racist thing? Why are you even equating the two and linking anti-immigration to being a Nazi?
While being against immigration may not necessarily make a person a racist, it depends on their reasoning behind wanting to limit immigration. Trump certainly used the racist 'dog whistle' of immigration during the election campaign, with his "mexican rapist" comments and his proposed muslim ban.
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Isn't that akin to calling those who believe in public health care a Communist?
The fact that there are dozens of countries in the world who have implemented public health care (in some fashion) but still maintain a capitalist economy in most other areas suggest that you do not have to be a communist to accept a public health care system.
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There are many reasons to be against immigration as it stands, both cultural...
Given the number of natural-born Canadians/Americans compared to the number of immigrants let in in a single year, I think our basic culture is safe.

Now if you had a specific issue with how people are assimilated into our country, then there might be a valid topic for discussion.
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...and economic.
Canada (and the U.S.) have a fairly low birth rate. We need immigration to help provide the population base to maintain our society.

Offline segnosaur

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Re: The Donald Trump Thread
« Reply #597 on: August 21, 2017, 02:28:04 pm »
If there were KKK/Nazis there advocating genocide or violence they should have been arrested and charged, because threatening violence is & should be illegal.
I assume it all depends on context.

The courts probably look at it differently if someone says "There is a jewish person... go and attack him" than if someone says "german concentration camps were a good thing". In some countries, the first one would be considered an incitement to violence pretty much everwhere (since the person would be advocating for an immediate use of violence), while the second one (depending on the state of the country's hate speech laws) might be considered protected speech.

Offline SirJohn

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Re: The Donald Trump Thread
« Reply #598 on: August 21, 2017, 06:12:47 pm »
You're incredibly dim witted if you think my views are even remotely akin to advocating genocide. White supremacy is violence. Period. Violence is an appropriate response to genocidal maniacs.

I don't know how much more obvious I can be. If someone gets to stop the Nazis from speaking their offensive views, then they get to stop you too. Maybe it's because you aren't capable of seeing the forest for the trees. You zero in on Nazis and ignore the broader importance of freedom of speech. Or maybe you just don't have a problem with repressing other people's freedom of speech because you're convinced yours will never be repressed. But there is no way to write a law to repress the Nazis which will not leave you open to being repressed too if different people get into power. I'm not willing to take the chance just because of a small bunch of loonies and a somewhat larger group of offended snowflakes.
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline SirJohn

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Re: The Donald Trump Thread
« Reply #599 on: August 21, 2017, 06:17:27 pm »
Yeah, I don't get this opposite view at all.  These people would literally kill brown people and Jews if they were allowed to do so without and repercussions.  It's not only about their 'stupid views'.

The Nazis are a pretty easy group to focus on. Their murderous beliefs are right there on the surface and aimed at particular groups. The Communists and Marxists, on the other hand, have always proclaimed a universal brotherhood. That hasn't stopped them from wantonly slaughtering millions who get in their way, or from instituting some of the world's most vile and repressive states. Their intolerance of opposing viewpoints is legendary and almost always  leads to concentration camps, re-education camps, and mass murder when they get into power.

So how's about this? You get to kill all the Nazis if we also kill all Communists and Marxists. That will include a significant portion of the NDP caucus, I'm afraid, along with a lot of the 'anti racist' bunch,  but hey, their views, if implemented, would literally kill unknowable numbers of people. So it's dangerous to allow them to go on expressing them.
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum