Author Topic: The Donald Trump Thread  (Read 149989 times)

0 Members and 5 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline segnosaur

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1557
Re: The Donald Trump Thread
« Reply #555 on: August 18, 2017, 05:48:13 pm »
This whole 'there's no moral equivalency' thing is hard to understand.  These NAZI's are not the NAZI's of the 1930's and 40's, they haven't actually done much of anything when looked at in context, certainly not as much as ISIS for example, are these modern NAZI's more of a threat than ISIS?  Have they done more damage?
Well, lets see...

In the past 10 years, there have been at least 372 people killed by extremists. Of those,
- 74% were killed by right wing extremists
- 24% were killed by Islamic terrorists
- 2% were killed by left wing extremists
(ETA: This is for the United States.)

Now, granted, not all of those 74% were Nazis... some were members of the KKK, or other extremist groups. Still, some might consider that a racist is a racist, whether they are waving a swastika or the confederate flag.

https://www.adl.org/education/resources/reports/murder-and-extremism-in-the-united-states-in-2016

Oh, and by the way... did you know that Trump cut funding to programs to combat right-wing extremists? So while the Racist-in-Chief is trying to stop immigration to protect us from the evil people who pray in a funny way, he is giving free reign to those who cause roughly 3 times the number of deaths. (But at least there are some "fine people" among them.)

http://www.metro.us/president-trump/trump-federal-funding-hate-group-violence
« Last Edit: August 18, 2017, 05:56:12 pm by segnosaur »

Offline Queefer Sutherland

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10186
Re: The Donald Trump Thread
« Reply #556 on: August 18, 2017, 06:54:40 pm »
Well, lets see...

In the past 10 years, there have been at least 372 people killed by extremists. Of those,
- 74% were killed by right wing extremists
- 24% were killed by Islamic terrorists
- 2% were killed by left wing extremists

You're right, the stats I've also seen indicate that right-wing extremists are much more violent in terms of causing deaths than left-wing extremists in the US.  Makes sense since a US rightwinger is much more likely to be armed to the teeth with firearms etc.
"Nipples is one of the great minds of our time!" - Bubbermiley

Offline BC_cheque

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 2236
Re: The Donald Trump Thread
« Reply #557 on: August 18, 2017, 11:02:31 pm »
Antifa exists to fight white supremacist fascists. They're not instigators, they're a reaction to violence. You know, the groups chanting kill the Jews and Nazi slogans. Yet you call Antifa the instigators? You might want to reflect on that a little more.



I'm talking about throwing the first punch, not self-defense, when I say it's wrong. 

I don't think punching people for doing nazi salute is a measured response. 

http://www.distractify.com/politics/2017/08/16/Z2vFsHr/man-makes-nazi-salute-on-camer



Offline BC_cheque

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 2236
Re: The Donald Trump Thread
« Reply #558 on: August 18, 2017, 11:05:22 pm »
I never argued they were equivalent, in fact I've specifically said the opposite & exactly what you're saying.  Again: KKK are WAAAAYYYYYY worse than ANTIFA radicals.  If I were forced to choose a violent KKK member or a violence ANTIFA, well duh yes I'd choose ANTIFA.  That's not the debate here.  The debate is whether initiating violence against white supremacists is a valid tactic we should support or condemn.  I'm saying I'm against any civilian initiating violence against another civilian unless their or another's life or physical safety is in immediate danger.  That's essentially how the law currently works. I'm for the rule of law, & nobody is above that no matter how righteous their cause, unless ie: there's a severe breakdown in rule of law/democracy.

I get what you're saying, it's not difficult to understand. 

Offline cybercoma

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 2956
Re: The Donald Trump Thread
« Reply #559 on: August 19, 2017, 08:00:10 am »
Obviously it isn't.
No. It really is.

A white supremacist neo-nazi murdered an innocent woman and attempted to murder several others by driving a car into a crowd. It's pretty easy to unequivocally denounce a terrorist murderer without pointing fingers at the victims at all. Bringing up ANTIFA or any other nonsense is meant to equivocate and justify his actions. Absolutely nothing else. It is literally used to diminish the gravity of what had happened. It also changes the conversation from denouncing an appalling murder to whining about liberals.

Look, you keep saying how abhorrent neo-nazis are and that there's no justification for their action. That entire rally was about white supremacy and those who weren't white supremacists stayed there and supported people chanting Nazi slogans and death to the Jews. What would you do if you went to a rally that you thought was about preserving historical monuments only to find yourself surrounded by a crowd full of hate-mongers? A normal, reasonable, and rational person would leave. That's not a crowd you want to be associated with or supporting. So that ENTIRE side were shitbags. Full stop.

On the left, you had professors, students, citizens, denouncing hate-mongering and white supremacy. That's what the vast majority of that crowd was. Were there radicals there. Absolutely. ANTIFA is a radical group, organized to fight white supremacy. But that was not the entire crowd on the other side. Not even close. That's not who was murdered by that maniac. That's not who those 19 others were that were seriously injured by him either. These were innocent civilians.

Seriously. Denouncing what had happened is a total softball. There is absolutely no room to play politics and during a time of crisis, during a literal radical rightwing terrorist attack, to turn around and start attacking the left and saying there's violence on "all sides" as if there is ANY comparison here. There is none. Nobody on the left opened fire on the crowd of white supremacists. Nobody on the left tried to drive a car into the crowd or murder anyone there. None.

In short, there is a time and a place to denounce the radicalism of ANTIFA. That absolutely has it's place and would be necessary if they drove a car into a crowd of white supremacists. Doing it when you're on national television supposedly consoling the nation after a white supremacist tried to murder a couple dozen people.....there's nothing else to call that than **** stupid. That's seriously not the time for mental **** about tallying up the sins of both sides to see which is worse.

(Besides, even if you did that, it's not even damn near close which radicals have shed more blood. Timothy McVeigh, Anders Breivik, etc., have spilled FAR more blood than any radical leftwing group that wasn't some authoritarian despot government ever has. There's a reason the intelligence agencies have said rightwing radical lone wolves are the single biggest terrorist threat to America. It's not leftwing radicals blowing up government buildings, building up militias, shooting up or burning down black churches, or driving cars into crowds of protesters. It wasn't leftwing protesters throwing black babies to alligators, dragging black men from their homes and hanging them from trees, or dragging black people from the bumpers of pickup trucks.)

Have some damn perspective, man.
Winner Winner x 2 View List

Offline cybercoma

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 2956
Re: The Donald Trump Thread
« Reply #560 on: August 19, 2017, 10:48:13 am »
I think amongst all this bullshit it's also really important to note that there is absolutely zero documented evidence of the left attacking anyone at all. Trump completely fabricated the story about them "charging in with clubs." It never happened. Not a single photo or video of it happening has emerged. Meanwhile, aside from the murder that took place, we do have videos and photos of white supremacists shoving and attacking counter-protesters, including clergy who had linked arms. More importantly, look at the stated purpose of the groups. The anarchists and anti-fascists were there to protest against white supremacy. White supremacists were there to literally promote genocide and violence.

I just can't for the life of me understand how anyone can even remotely equivocate on this matter. It's like the cops breaking up a streetfight and someone saying "There was a lot of violent on both sides. The drunks fighting in the street and the cops breaking them up. Lots of bad violence everywhere." It's sheer stupidity.

Offline kimmy

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 5033
  • Location: Kim City BC
Re: The Donald Trump Thread
« Reply #561 on: August 19, 2017, 12:26:14 pm »
There are multiple different issues here, and the white supremacy thing has overshadowed everything else, as it should.

Leaving that aside, we have:

 -people bringing weapons to public spaces in anticipation of confrontation.  -not cool.

 -does the US really need monuments to the Confederacy?  -I personally don't get it.

 -what's the best way to oppose speech we strongly disagree with?  -I am not sure.

 -what other ways are there to combat hate groups other than actual combat?


We've probably all seen the video of Richard Spencer getting punched in the head during an interview, and we probably all laughed because Richard Spencer probably deserves to get punched in the head.  But the reality is that we can't go around punching people in the head.

 -k
Paris - London - New York - Kim City
Agree Agree x 1 View List

Offline cybercoma

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 2956
Re: The Donald Trump Thread
« Reply #562 on: August 19, 2017, 12:42:11 pm »
-does the US really need monuments to the Confederacy?  -I personally don't get it.

 -k
Let me explain it as briefly as possible, since this one really interests me because I have a material history background.

Confederate monuments were erected for the sole purpose of intimidating black people in public spaces during the Jim Crow era. They weren't put up just after the wars to memorialize the fallen. They were put up 50-75 years. You know what's another fine example of this kind of white supremacy? Schools. When black people were finally allowed to go to the same public schools as white people, guess what happened? They started renaming schools after Confederates, as a subversive "**** you" to black people.

Here's a fantastic graphic showing the timeline. The blue dots are "monuments" built at courthouses. The green dots are schoolhouse "monuments." It's not a coincidence that there was an explosion of schoolhouse monuments after Brown v Board of Education.

https://www.splcenter.org/sites/default/files/whoseheritage-timeline150_years_of_iconography.jpg

For reference:

Plessy v Ferguson 1896--Separate but equal doctrine. The kickoff of Jim Crow. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plessy_v._Ferguson

Brown v Board of Education 1954--Overturned Plessy v Ferguson. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brown_v._Board_of_Education

Those monuments aren't even remotely close to memorializing history. They were meant for one sole purpose and that was the intimidation of black people in public spaces.
Informative Informative x 2 View List

Offline kimmy

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 5033
  • Location: Kim City BC
Re: The Donald Trump Thread
« Reply #563 on: August 19, 2017, 01:05:58 pm »
That's extremely interesting!

That sharp rise at around 1900-- 35 years after the war ended-- suggests that maybe the people who remembered the war were dying off and the people who were children or not even born at the time of the war were coming to power... so maybe their notion of the Confederacy was based on romanticized ideas they learned as kids.

I was reading last week about a group called "The Daughters of the Confederacy", the group that put up the Jefferson Davis plaque in Montreal that was removed last week.  The Daughters, founded at about the same time-- 1894-- set out to promote a revisionist, romanticized view of the Confederacy. I think the 30 year gap is interesting.  It seems to indicate that conditions had to change before they could go ahead with. Maybe romanticizing the South couldn't proceed until people who actually remembered the Civil War died off... maybe romanticizing the South couldn't begin in earnest until kids raised on tales of Southern glory became adults.

 -k
Paris - London - New York - Kim City

Offline SirJohn

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5801
Re: The Donald Trump Thread
« Reply #564 on: August 19, 2017, 02:59:08 pm »
-people bringing weapons to public spaces in anticipation of confrontation.  -not cool.

Not cool? It's idiotic. It's idiotic to even let them wear masks and carry shields. And the whole concept of 'open carry' is ludicrous.

Quote
-does the US really need monuments to the Confederacy?  -I personally don't get it.

I'm not a southerner. But the south has developed, perhaps because they were crushed in their war, a need to believe that their history was something greater, more noble. It's become a part of their culture now, of how they see themselves. A poll taken by National Public Radio showed Americans think the monuments should remain, by more than a two to one margin. The margin was even higher among Republicans as just 6% felt they should be removed.

Quote
-what's the best way to oppose speech we strongly disagree with?  -I am not sure.

Imagine if you gave a rally and made speeches and nobody paid any attention to it because it was stupid?

Quote
We've probably all seen the video of Richard Spencer getting punched in the head during an interview, and we probably all laughed because Richard Spencer probably deserves to get punched in the head.  But the reality is that we can't go around punching people in the head.

And a lot of people took a fierce joy in him getting punched and run off. Today in Boston thousands of protestors swamped a couple of hundred right wingers trying to hold a demo in the park. From what I've read, this was not a white supremacist or Nazi thing. They were libertarians, trump supporters, etc. As far as the demonstrators were concerned they were all Nazis and racists, though. The activist Left does not make fine distinctions in this regard. There is supposed to be a rally in Vancouver over immigration. No doubt some of the people who would/will attend are unsavoury, but many will simply be opposing our current immigration system. But again, the Left is already describing it as a white nationalist rally.

I really don't give a **** about Nazis and klukkers. There really aren't that many of them, especially in Canada. I do really care about freedom of speech, though, and the tendency of the Left to try to shut down any and all conservative demos, meetings or speeches with all-purpose labels and pejoratives.
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline SirJohn

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5801
Re: The Donald Trump Thread
« Reply #565 on: August 19, 2017, 03:19:58 pm »
You're right, the stats I've also seen indicate that right-wing extremists are much more violent in terms of causing deaths than left-wing extremists in the US.  Makes sense since a US rightwinger is much more likely to be armed to the teeth with firearms etc.

But even the author of the study which the numbers are derived from makes the point that these are not, for the most part, terrorist incidents. These people are often deranged in their anti-government views, and their violence is often unplanned, or lacks a political motive, or, if it has a political motive, lacks the intent to affect or impact the political or social climate. These are resentful losers with guns, and yes, they're violent, and yes, there's a lot more of them than there are of Muslim terrorists. But the people don't fear them very much because their attacks are usually narrow, aimed at police or government figures. They generally aren't out there hijacking airliners or frenziedly stabbing women to death on the streets, or blowing up bombs in markets or machinegunning crowds of people in malls and restaurants. So they are not, in other words, sowing 'terror' among the general populace. We don't have to show up three hours early to the airport for fear of right wingers putting bombs on the planes, and we don't have cops with automatic weapons at bus and train stations for fear of crazed right wingers. This is why there is a disparity in the coverage and alarm.
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

guest4

  • Guest
Re: The Donald Trump Thread
« Reply #566 on: August 19, 2017, 05:05:30 pm »
As far as the demonstrators were concerned they were all Nazis and racists, though. The activist Left does not make fine distinctions in this regard.

Kind of like the right-wingers who fail to make any distinction between 'extremists' and Muslims.


Quote
There is supposed to be a rally in Vancouver over immigration. No doubt some of the people who would/will attend are unsavoury, but many will simply be opposing our current immigration system. But again, the Left is already describing it as a white nationalist rally.

This rally is co-organized by WCAI - Worldwide Coalition Against Islam - leader Joey DeLuca.   

[Coalition president Joey De Luca, a Calgary resident travelling to Vancouver for the rally, said Friday he was unable to explain why his vice-president promoted such messages online, a day after De Luca had insisted his group wasn’t racist and had nothing to do with white supremacy.

Earlier this week, Wielenga posted “14 WORDS” on his public Facebook profile, to which another Facebook user responded “1488” and “Hail victory brother,” prompting Wielenga to publicly endorse both comments by clicking “Like.”

These are coded terms commonly used by white supremacists and neo-Nazis, referring to the 14-word slogan “We must secure the existence of our people and a future for white children,” and “88,” which stands for “Heil Hitler” (using the number “8” to represent “H,” the eighth letter of the alphabet). “Hail victory” is the English translation of “Sieg heil,” a salute used in Nazi Germany.

http://vancouversun.com/news/local-news/no-apologies-from-vancouver-rally-organizer-who-posted-white-supremacist-codes-racist-images-online

The co-organizers are the Cultural Action Party, right up your political alley --
a registered B.C. Political Party, represent Canadian citizens who value and wish to retain Canada's traditional identity, heritage and official languages by way of the following:

Preserve and promote English, French and First Nations cultural heritage throughout society.
Ensure British Columbian residents receive priority regarding affordable housing, employment, education and medical services.
Legislate Canada’s official language of English as the official language of the province of British Columbia.
Restrict, regulate and tax foreign investment in residential, commercial and agricultural real estate.
Revise provincial immigration nominee programs to maximize economic benefit.
Maintain the separation of religion and state at all levels of government, judiciary, legal and educational institutions.
Reduce child poverty and address child abuse within province of British Columbia.
Commercial public signage to be inclusive of Canada’s official language of English.
Repeal carbon emissions taxation within province of British Columbia.
Support funding of Canada’s military and veteran services within their communities.

http://capforcanada.com/platform/



Quote
I really don't give a **** about Nazis and klukkers. There really aren't that many of them, especially in Canada. I do really care about freedom of speech, though, and the tendency of the Left to try to shut down any and all conservative demos, meetings or speeches with all-purpose labels and pejoratives.

Yet, you are very concerned about Muslim extremists in Canada, of which there are even less.  Why the double standard?


Offline SirJohn

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5801
Re: The Donald Trump Thread
« Reply #567 on: August 19, 2017, 06:29:24 pm »
Kind of like the right-wingers who fail to make any distinction between 'extremists' and Muslims.

In surveys taken of world Muslims, the majority give opinions on issues like Jews, gays, religious freedom  and gender equality which are, by our standards, extremist.

Quote
This rally is co-organized by WCAI - Worldwide Coalition Against Islam - leader Joey DeLuca.   

[Coalition president Joey De Luca, a Calgary resident travelling to Vancouver for the rally, said Friday he was unable to explain why his vice-president promoted such messages online, a day after De Luca had insisted his group wasn’t racist and had nothing to do with white supremacy.

So his deputy is a moron? So? I imagine they'll wind up parting ways with him from the sound of it.

Quote
The co-organizers are the Cultural Action Party, right up your political alley --
a registered B.C. Political Party, represent Canadian citizens who value and wish to retain Canada's traditional identity, heritage and official languages by way of the following:

Preserve and promote English, French and First Nations cultural heritage throughout society.
Ensure British Columbian residents receive priority regarding affordable housing, employment, education and medical services.
Legislate Canada’s official language of English as the official language of the province of British Columbia.
Restrict, regulate and tax foreign investment in residential, commercial and agricultural real estate.
Revise provincial immigration nominee programs to maximize economic benefit.
Maintain the separation of religion and state at all levels of government, judiciary, legal and educational institutions.
Reduce child poverty and address child abuse within province of British Columbia.
Commercial public signage to be inclusive of Canada’s official language of English.
Repeal carbon emissions taxation within province of British Columbia.
Support funding of Canada’s military and veteran services within their communities.

http://capforcanada.com/platform/

What about any of that is extreme?

Quote
Yet, you are very concerned about Muslim extremists in Canada, of which there are even less.  Why the double standard?

Again, the cultural attitudes and beliefs of world Muslims tend to be extremist by our standards. And there are a whole hell of a lot more of them than there are Nazis.
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline Michael Hardner

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12467
Re: The Donald Trump Thread
« Reply #568 on: August 20, 2017, 06:57:14 am »
In surveys taken of world Muslims, the majority give opinions on issues like Jews, gays, religious freedom  and gender equality which are, by our standards, extremist.
 

I think the breakdown of what constitutes a 'group' is informative here.

You are born into a culture, and you don't choose it.  An alt-right group is a new thing, an organized group with stated principles that somebody seeks out and joins because they agree with those. 

Groups and demographics can be useful analytical tools, but humans tend to select groupings that support our in-born "us vs them" tribalism.  If you select groups based on that, you're already on the path to separating and dividing people. 

Offline SirJohn

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5801
Re: The Donald Trump Thread
« Reply #569 on: August 20, 2017, 09:59:25 am »
I think the breakdown of what constitutes a 'group' is informative here.

You are born into a culture, and you don't choose it.  An alt-right group is a new thing, an organized group with stated principles that somebody seeks out and joins because they agree with those. 

The end result is the same. You have views which, by our cultural standards, are extreme. And in some cases, few, to be sure, those views lead some to perform acts of brutal violence against people they don't even know. Thus some moronic Nazi outraged that they disagree with him drives his car into people in Charlottesville. Thus some moronic Moroccan outraged that women aren't behaving in the meek, modest, obedient fashion he believes they should takes a knife to them in Finland.

Quote
Groups and demographics can be useful analytical tools, but humans tend to select groupings that support our in-born "us vs them" tribalism.  If you select groups based on that, you're already on the path to separating and dividing people.

Yes, we do tend to prefer groupings which are 'like us'. That's no surprise to any social psychologist. And that can mean resentment and disapproval towards groups which are not like us. But it usually means we just don't want to have much to do with them. Of course, the more closely you mix these groups and the wider the variance between deeply held beliefs the greater the likelihood of outrage and thus violence.
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum