Author Topic: The Donald Trump Thread  (Read 150303 times)

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Offline cybercoma

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Re: The Donald Trump Thread
« Reply #540 on: August 18, 2017, 08:14:32 am »
For the record, MLK was only successful because the alternative was the Black Panthers. The state had a choice of listening to MLK or pushing people to the more violent option. Further still, Ghandi and MLK were able to passively push back against laws written to enslave them. There is no passive option for fighting white supremacists trying to take power, unless you're so foolish as to actually think they should be given what they want as the oppressed just sit back and "peacefully" do nothing. Bullshit.

Offline kimmy

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Re: The Donald Trump Thread
« Reply #541 on: August 18, 2017, 09:47:33 am »
Why does Trump support Confederates anyway?   Didn't Robert E Lee lose? I thought Trump only liked winners. War heroes that weren't captured, generals that didn't lose, etc.


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Offline Queefer Sutherland

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Re: The Donald Trump Thread
« Reply #542 on: August 18, 2017, 11:44:08 am »
To be frank, I don't care much for what goes on the mind of white supremacists.  Their thought process is obviously corrupted - otherwise they couldn't hate other human beings for such superficial reasons.

Look, the reality is, there would have been no BLM protest if their hadn't been an armed white supremacist march.  One side started everything.  One side came heavily armed.  One side murdered.  That a few people on the other side may have thrown a few unprovoked punched bothers me less than not at all.

I get that, I know you're a good person, we're on the same team but just disagree on some points.  A Nazi or 2 getting decked...I don't lose sleep over that either, but this also isn't a struggle that's going away any time soon & I'm 100% certain it's going to get worse over the next few decades as caucasian populations in the West dwindle due to low birth-rates, baby boomers dying, & immigration to replace them which will be seen as a threat to white nationalists more & more.  So we need to decide the tactics on how we're going to deal with these extremists.
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Offline Queefer Sutherland

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Re: The Donald Trump Thread
« Reply #543 on: August 18, 2017, 11:54:44 am »
I personally feel that we tried the better way for a long time now - it doesn't seem to have helped to end white supremacist thinking.

Then you support left-wing extremist terrorism then, that's basically what you're saying.  Civilians causing violence against other civilians for political ends is terrorism.  Every terrorist thinks their cause is righteous.

You don't think white supremicism has shrunk significantly over the last 50-00 years?  It's not gone no, but Barack Obama was elected POTUS twice.
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Offline Queefer Sutherland

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Re: The Donald Trump Thread
« Reply #544 on: August 18, 2017, 12:06:39 pm »
Debate you about what? Whether it's right to fight violent neo-nazis and white nationalists with violence? Where's the debate to be had?

Think about this, neo-nazis would exist even if antifa didn't. Antifa ONLY exists to fight neo-nazis and skinheads. Period. They wouldn't otherwise exist.

Think about this, America would exist even if al-Qaeda didn't.  Al-Qaeda ONLY exists to fight America and Israel and sinful Muslim apostates.  Period.  They wouldn't otherwise exist.

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There's no god damned equivalence here. Unless you also sit around condemning the violence "perpetrated" by the Allies stopping Nazi Germany.

Nazis would have invaded & minced up all of Europe if they weren't stopped at gunpoint by the Allies.  There was no non-violence alternative.  I believe there is here, as there was in the 50's/60's with MLK and in British India with Gandhi.  Now if KKK started physically attacking leftwing protesters, I certainly believe in the right for those protesters to defend themselves with violence if necessary.  I'm not a pacifist, I believe in violence only when absolutely necessary where there's no viable alternative.
« Last Edit: August 18, 2017, 12:12:27 pm by Moonlight Graham »
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Offline Queefer Sutherland

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Re: The Donald Trump Thread
« Reply #545 on: August 18, 2017, 12:11:51 pm »
So you're like a Mennonite, condemning ALL violence?

No, I never said that.

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You're appalled at our troops shooting at ISIS? You're appalled at the death penalty? You're appalled at cops roughing people up when they arrest them?

No.  Yes.  No (in a healthy & functioning liberal democracy, the police have the monopoly of violence.  This prevents vigilante justice & anarchy. The most extreme elements of ANTIFA are anarchists).
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Offline wilber

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Re: The Donald Trump Thread
« Reply #546 on: August 18, 2017, 12:17:26 pm »
I personally feel that we tried the better way for a long time now - it doesn't seem to have helped to end white supremacist thinking.

People like this will always exist so it is futile to think you will "end" it by any means, including using violence. We must continually work at discrediting it, not validating them by lowering themselves to their level.

Demand to know how they intend to achieve their agenda. Forced expulsions?  Putting people in camps? Forced sterilization to keep non whites from reproducing? Passing discriminatory laws that a SC will trash in a heartbeat? How?
"Never trust a man without a single redeeming vice" WSC

Offline segnosaur

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Re: The Donald Trump Thread
« Reply #547 on: August 18, 2017, 12:31:39 pm »
Bannon Out...

Looks like Steve Bannon is no longer a part of Trump's team.

There are conflicting stories... There are some claims that he actually resigned a week ago, but then Trump and others were acting as if Bannon was still working for Trump as of earlier this week.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/trump-has-decided-to-remove-steve-bannon-from-white-house/

There are some reports (not yet confirmed) stating that the split was not friendly, and Bannon is planning on going "to war" against the white house.

https://twitter.com/gabrielsherman/status/898594013409882112

Offline poochy

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Re: The Donald Trump Thread
« Reply #548 on: August 18, 2017, 12:42:13 pm »
This whole 'there's no moral equivalency' thing is hard to understand.  These NAZI's are not the NAZI's of the 1930's and 40's, they haven't actually done much of anything when looked at in context, certainly not as much as ISIS for example, are these modern NAZI's more of a threat than ISIS?  Have they done more damage?  So what exactly does no moral equivalency mean?  Are these NAZI's already as bad as Hitler's NAZI's for wanting to be like them, or thinking they do, or because they could become them when we already have others behaving in much worse ways elsewhere?  It's not normal to compare the behavior of one group to the behaviors of others to say who was worse?   We measure most things against others.  It sounds like a cop out designed to prevent even debating the subject, and maybe that's the way it needs to be, idk.

So this group that i hadnt heard of before this week, antifa, are these the new heroes of equality and democracy?  Are these the vigilantes we need now, enough that we will cheer them on and give them license to fight for us in the future?  Here's a question, how many of them are they same sort of people who will shout down anyone they disagree with at a university?  Or cheer when someone blows up a bus in Israel, or cheer when a cop gets ambushed and murdered?  How many of them are Marxists or Communists?  Or when they carry a certain flag, should we not take them as seriously as the NAZI's carrying their own flags?  Maybe when they do it it's just cute, i mean, what harm could come of that?  Are these really the good people you want to empower with defending your principles?  Are we not allowed to ask those questions simply because the NAZI's were, maybe are and could be so terrible again?  Was it wrong to criticize Stalin for the deaths of millions because he lead Russia while it fought off the NAZI's while they killed millions more?  As I learned this week antifa isn't really new, its as old as the NAZI's, but then they were actually fighting a widespread political movement, not a few morons under sheets or carrying NAZI flags.

At least some of the people from the 'good' side are as extreme as those on the 'bad' side, the problem may end up being that we already give those 'good' people too much leeway to decide where we are supposed going as a society, we may realize at some point that their idea of a perfect world may not be ours. After all the right statues come down what will they target next, and are you going to then tell them that they are going to far, will you have the courage?  If they label you as the next racist or bigot, or even NAZI, what then?  There will not be a level of acceptable progression to them, there will just be the next target.  I dont much care about statues either, knock em all down, lee was a slave owner, he was also a patriot of the wrong 'country', fighting for the wrong things, even by those standards.  So do away with all of it, but im not sure im allowed to mention this as it's in the vein of "moral equivalency", but even the people who fought against slavery, and campaigned against it, were mostly still racists.  So how not racist enough did you have to be to keep your statue?  Idk, but I suppose antifa or some other good folks, like those at BLM will tell us, when they arent cheering on cop killers.

Anyway, NAZI's horrible, KKK horrible, much less horrible people may still not be good people, and they may not be the sort you want to empower to either protect or limit yours or anyone else's freedoms.  I dont have any answers, at least not as sure of them as some of you seem to be of yours, maybe considering the president, this is the only option, but lets not pretend the people who showed up to fight off the NAZI's were just local residents who saw them and reacted, just good people doing a good deed, no, antifa is a far left political organization that sees itself as outside the law, support that if you think you must.

"Antifa believes it is pursuing the opposite of authoritarianism. Many of its activists oppose the very notion of a centralized state. But in the name of protecting the vulnerable, antifascists have granted themselves the authority to decide which Americans may publicly assemble and which may not."

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2017/09/the-rise-of-the-violent-left/534192/

But i dont think i can.
« Last Edit: August 18, 2017, 12:53:42 pm by poochy »

Offline poochy

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Re: The Donald Trump Thread
« Reply #549 on: August 18, 2017, 01:18:52 pm »
O, and is this now ok too?

http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/missouri-senator-trump-assassination-posts-1.4252610

Trump is the enemy, he's the fascist in chief, if she self identifies as a member of antifa will that make it more ok? Or is that not required?  I mean, it's no more legal to accidentally or purposefully murder a NAZI during a protest melee that it is the president so why is she being asked to resign?  Maybe we have to ask antifa what their opinion is since they seem to be making the rules now.

Offline cybercoma

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Re: The Donald Trump Thread
« Reply #550 on: August 18, 2017, 01:34:00 pm »
You equivocating is idiotic. It's real easy.

**** nazis and their supporters and enablers, including Trump.

It's that simple.

Offline JMT

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Re: The Donald Trump Thread
« Reply #551 on: August 18, 2017, 02:07:23 pm »
You equivocating is idiotic. It's real easy.

**** nazis and their supporters and enablers, including Trump.

It's that simple.

Amen

Offline msj

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Re: The Donald Trump Thread
« Reply #552 on: August 18, 2017, 03:09:07 pm »
I'm not a Trump supporter, he's a terrible person & a racist.


Keep telling yourself that if you care to believe it.

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Violence by vigilantes is not the proper cure for this cancer.  Go ask MLK or Gandhi.  We don't need to stoop to their level.  The chemo here is protest, condemnation, & political action.  We've seen a whole bunch of confederate monuments come down since the protest, that's what we need.


Agreed. Never said vigilantes are the cure.  Just saying it is BS to continue with this false equivalency crap.

Yes, one can make a claim in 1920's Germany that the commies and fascists were just as bad as each other prior to the rise of Hitler.  They probably were roughly equivalent (and look at the results of Stalin and Hitler - clearly equivalent).

But this is 2017. In America. 

The neo-Nazis should be condemned and we all know Hilary would have gotten it right the first time. 

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True enough, but we need to stop hating people we strongly dislike.  It leads to people lashing out in violence.  We need to stop acting like children and act like civilized adults, which these alt-right morons aren't.  KKK & Nazis are human beings who think, say, and do terrible things, but they're still human beings.  Violent mob justice against them is just like they would do.  Public lynchings brings us to their level.


If you put Obama in a room with a random sample of those neo-Nazis I'm pretty sure what the outcome would have been - he'd be hanging from a tree.  Just for being black.

Trump in a room with a random sample of the counter protesters?  He'd get yelled at. They would promise to get more democrats to vote next time.

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Offline Queefer Sutherland

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Re: The Donald Trump Thread
« Reply #553 on: August 18, 2017, 03:52:50 pm »
You equivocating is idiotic. It's real easy.

**** nazis and their supporters and enablers, including Trump.

I agree 100%, I don't think anyone disagrees here with that.

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It's that simple.

Obviously it isn't.
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Offline Queefer Sutherland

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Re: The Donald Trump Thread
« Reply #554 on: August 18, 2017, 04:09:30 pm »
Agreed. Never said vigilantes are the cure.  Just saying it is BS to continue with this false equivalency crap. 

If you put Obama in a room with a random sample of those neo-Nazis I'm pretty sure what the outcome would have been - he'd be hanging from a tree.  Just for being black.

Trump in a room with a random sample of the counter protesters?  He'd get yelled at. They would promise to get more democrats to vote next time.

I never argued they were equivalent, in fact I've specifically said the opposite & exactly what you're saying.  Again: KKK are WAAAAYYYYYY worse than ANTIFA radicals.  If I were forced to choose a violent KKK member or a violence ANTIFA, well duh yes I'd choose ANTIFA.  That's not the debate here.  The debate is whether initiating violence against white supremacists is a valid tactic we should support or condemn.  I'm saying I'm against any civilian initiating violence against another civilian unless their or another's life or physical safety is in immediate danger.  That's essentially how the law currently works. I'm for the rule of law, & nobody is above that no matter how righteous their cause, unless ie: there's a severe breakdown in rule of law/democracy.
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