Author Topic: The Donald Trump Thread  (Read 4057 times)

Offline Moonlight Graham

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Re: The Donald Trump Thread
« Reply #510 on: August 16, 2017, 07:18:07 pm »
The problem with that argument...

If the racists/neo-nazis did not exist, then the antifa would not exist.
If the antifa people did not exist, the racists/neo-nazis would have continued doing what they were doing.

It may not necessarily be wrong to question the activities of some of the left-wing protestors. But because of the reasons that both groups exist (one side expressing hate, the other saying hate is wrong), then ALL of the blame should go to the racists.

Huh??  Obviously antifa is fighting for a more righteous cause, but everyone is responsible for their own actions.  I'm going to go with the law here, which says all violence against another person is wrong (unless it's in self-defense of violence being imminently forced upon you etc).  If I punch someone in the face I can't put ALL blame on the other person because they were spewing offensive or even hateful things at me (unless it's threatening me with violence), I'll still be charged with assault, so what you're saying wouldn't stand up in court.  The state has a monopoly on violence, this is how liberal democracies & civilized societies work.

I'm not trying to defend nazis or Trump, I'm trying to defend anti-violence, like MLK & Gandhi did.

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But because of the reasons that both groups exist (one side expressing hate, the other saying hate is wrong), then ALL of the blame should go to the racists.]

Consider this: when an otherwise well-meaning protester dislikes hateful Nazis/KKK like we all do with so much resentment & anger that the protester violently attacks those KKK racists, isn't that also an expression of hate?  Shouldn't we be better than them? "Others may hate you, but those who hate you don't win, unless you hate them, and then you destroy yourself". - Richard Nixon at his farewell speech.
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Offline Omni

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Re: The Donald Trump Thread
« Reply #511 on: August 16, 2017, 08:07:55 pm »


I'm not trying to defend nazis or Trump, I'm trying to defend anti-violence, like MLK & Gandhi did.

That's about as flimsy an argument as Trump is trying to flog. Watch the videos and get back to us as to who you see coming to the party with Nazi flags, tiki torches, and AR 15's, screaming racist slogans. Quit trying to protect these assholes!

Offline Moonlight Graham

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Re: The Donald Trump Thread
« Reply #512 on: August 16, 2017, 08:34:33 pm »
That's about as flimsy an argument as Trump is trying to flog.

Anti-violence is not a good argument?  Do you condemn all of the people who initiated violence on that day?  For Pete's sake I try to do so and I'm labeled a Trump & Nazi defender on all this nonsense here & elsewhere.

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Watch the videos and get back to us as to who you see coming to the party with Nazi flags, tiki torches, and AR 15's, screaming racist slogans. Quit trying to protect these assholes!

Show me where I've defended these horrible idiots?  I'm not pro-Nazi i'm anti-violent a$$hats!!  I'm not going to defend a bunch of idiots just because they're "on my side".  This isn't a baseball game, people are getting hurt out there.  Nazis getting clubbed & maced isn't the worst thing I've heard of but momma taught me better too.
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Offline JMT

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Re: The Donald Trump Thread
« Reply #513 on: August 16, 2017, 09:51:29 pm »
WWII was pretty violent.  Sometimes we hit the Nazis first.  Sometimes, you have to hit the Nazis first.

Offline Moonlight Graham

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Re: The Donald Trump Thread
« Reply #514 on: August 16, 2017, 10:44:36 pm »
WWII was pretty violent.  Sometimes we hit the Nazis first.  Sometimes, you have to hit the Nazis first.

The Nazis hit first.  The Allies etc were defending themselves against Nazi attack.
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Offline JMT

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Re: The Donald Trump Thread
« Reply #515 on: August 17, 2017, 12:21:25 am »
The Nazis hit first.  The Allies etc were defending themselves against Nazi attack.

Overall.  The same is true here.

Offline msj

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Re: The Donald Trump Thread
« Reply #516 on: August 17, 2017, 12:31:31 am »
Oh the false equivalency going on by the Trump supporter here.

As seen on twitter: Sure, the cancer was aggressive. But the chemotherapy was also aggressive. There was aggression on both sides.

As seen on the facebook: We hate Trump as much as you hate Obama. The difference is we hate Trump because he is racist while you hate Obama because you are a racist. 



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Offline Moonlight Graham

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Re: The Donald Trump Thread
« Reply #517 on: August 17, 2017, 05:59:54 pm »
Overall.  The same is true here.

If a left-wing protester was being violent in order to defend themselves against a violent attack by these alt-right idiots then yes you're right.  But that wasn't always the case in Charlottesville.  Here's footage of a pretty tame speech by the organizer of the "Unite the Right" protests being attacked/punched by a protester...who chases him down & punches him again before being arrested by the cops (go to 17:30 in the video): 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P54sP0Nlngg

Every single one of us either supports this violence or condemns it as per the law, there's no other option.  Nazis and anti-Nazi protesters should all be following the same basic rule of law, otherwise there will be chaos.  The cops failed to uphold the law on every side during the protests since they were ordered by the mayor to stand down.
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Offline Moonlight Graham

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Re: The Donald Trump Thread
« Reply #518 on: August 17, 2017, 06:17:41 pm »
Oh the false equivalency going on by the Trump supporter here.

I'm not a Trump supporter, he's a terrible person & a racist.

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As seen on twitter: Sure, the cancer was aggressive. But the chemotherapy was also aggressive. There was aggression on both sides.

Violence by vigilantes is not the proper cure for this cancer.  Go ask MLK or Gandhi.  We don't need to stoop to their level.  The chemo here is protest, condemnation, & political action.  We've seen a whole bunch of confederate monuments come down since the protest, that's what we need.

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As seen on the facebook: We hate Trump as much as you hate Obama. The difference is we hate Trump because he is racist while you hate Obama because you are a racist.

True enough, but we need to stop hating people we strongly dislike.  It leads to people lashing out in violence.  We need to stop acting like children and act like civilized adults, which these alt-right morons aren't.  KKK & Nazis are human beings who think, say, and do terrible things, but they're still human beings.  Violent mob justice against them is just like they would do.  Public lynchings brings us to their level.
Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people.

Offline MH

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Re: The Donald Trump Thread
« Reply #519 on: August 17, 2017, 06:21:32 pm »
MG has some good thoughts.

Offline wilber

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Re: The Donald Trump Thread
« Reply #520 on: August 17, 2017, 08:47:55 pm »
He does.

Offline the_squid

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Re: The Donald Trump Thread
« Reply #521 on: August 17, 2017, 09:03:02 pm »
So when the KKK shows up in town armed and ready for a fight, people should be pacifists and take their shit?

Offline JMT

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Re: The Donald Trump Thread
« Reply #522 on: August 17, 2017, 09:11:49 pm »
If a left-wing protester was being violent in order to defend themselves against a violent attack by these alt-right idiots then yes you're right.  But that wasn't always the case in Charlottesville.

My point - that wasn't always the case in WWII either - certainly not at every engagement.  Overall, the Nazis started it, both times.

Offline JMT

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Re: The Donald Trump Thread
« Reply #523 on: August 17, 2017, 09:13:21 pm »
MG has some good thoughts.

Not really - it's more moral equivalency garbage.

Offline BC_cheque

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Re: The Donald Trump Thread
« Reply #524 on: August 17, 2017, 09:45:36 pm »
He does.

I think so too.  Even if the nazis are abhorrent, I don't think instigating violence was right.

Fighting back is one thing, but when I started seeing the unprovoked 'punch a nazi' memes I was floored.  Next thing you know the fights escalate and a inevitably someone got killed.

They counter-protesters did their cause a lot of disservice in my opinion and it pisses me off because it gives the nazis justification which they should not have. 

Just listening to Trump make the moral equivalence, for example, makes me sick.  He wouldn't have a leg to stand on otherwise.