Author Topic: The Donald Trump Thread  (Read 135327 times)

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Offline Bubbermiley

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Re: The Donald Trump Thread
« Reply #1500 on: February 03, 2018, 09:42:29 am »
No idea what you are talking about. What was disclosed establishes a source was biased. It is does not establish that it was knowingly false.
There were reports early yesterday in the WSJ that the FISA court was not informed that Steele may be biased, but that was later reported to be false in the Post, NYT and the WSJ.
"I have worked hard to represent people of all backgrounds and I have always done so in a spirit of tolerance. My reference to the term 'tar baby' was a common reference that refers to issues that stick to one." - Pierre Poilievre

Offline waldo

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Re: The Donald Trump Thread
« Reply #1501 on: February 03, 2018, 09:43:28 am »
A somewhat related story about the general incompetence/bad incentives/"the law does not apply to us" attitude at the US DOJ:

https://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1483588386/amazon0156-20/

its not related in any way whatsoever. But its quite telling that you'd rush to cherry-pick a legitimate legal undertaking intended to check the validity of the 'factual off-label promotion' of a particular health related device; one subject to U.S. FDA authority.

Offline TimG

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Re: The Donald Trump Thread
« Reply #1502 on: February 03, 2018, 09:46:37 am »
There were reports early yesterday in the WSJ that the FISA court was not informed that Steele may be biased, but that was later reported to be false in the Post, NYT and the WSJ.
OK. That is good to know. Not disclosing it was the part of the story which struck me as underhanded. If the source was disclosed as biased to the judge and the warrant was still granted then there must be more to the warrant application than the released memo suggests.

Offline waldo

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Re: The Donald Trump Thread
« Reply #1503 on: February 03, 2018, 09:50:38 am »
OK. That is good to know.

 ;D c'mon... the waldo told you as much! And you were so sure, so adamant - carry on.
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Offline TimG

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Re: The Donald Trump Thread
« Reply #1504 on: February 03, 2018, 09:54:04 am »
a legitimate legal undertaking intended to check the validity of the 'factual off-label promotion' of a particular health related device; one subject to U.S. FDA authority.
There was nothing legitimate about the unhanded tactics used during the investigation. One bureaucrat ended up going to jail for for the abuse of process but unfortunately most of the abuses the DOJ got away with are not crimes (even though they should be). Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

Offline waldo

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Re: The Donald Trump Thread
« Reply #1505 on: February 03, 2018, 10:05:13 am »
There was nothing legitimate about the unhanded tactics used during the investigation. One bureaucrat ended up going to jail for for the abuse of process but unfortunately most of the abuses the DOJ got away with are not crimes (even though they should be). Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

not my reading of the proceeding; but hey now... with your continued emphasis on the U.S. DOJ and your initial claim of "somewhat related", given your backpedal, shouldn't this also apply to your claim of "somewhat related"? Quis custodiet in sui certa adamanta terit?

Offline kimmy

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Re: The Donald Trump Thread
« Reply #1506 on: February 03, 2018, 11:09:47 am »
The government knowingly used false evidence to spy on a the potential president of the US and proceeded to ramp it up in an attempt to impeach and overthrow that president and you call it a big nothing?  Just because people hate Trump they're willing to throw away their freedom, and the press is quite willing to throw away any semblance of integrity that they have left.  WTF is wrong with you people.

Here's a couple of articles from the "Red State" explaining why Devin Nunes' memo is actually just a PR stunt.  (and I picked Red State as a source because they're as right-wing on the media spectrum as you can get without being alt-right. So that people don't come back at me with "blah blah liberal media blah blah.")

First article:

https://www.redstate.com/patterico/2018/02/02/significant-inaccuracy-thememo-calls-credibility-question/

Summary:  Nunes claims Comey said the dossier was "salacious and unverified".  In fact, Comey actually said that portions of it were "salacious and unverified".  Nunes' claim that the whole dossier is "salacious and unverified" is false and dishonest.


Second article:

https://www.redstate.com/sweetie15/2018/02/03/busted-key-allegation-nunes-weaponized-memo-drop-kicked/

Nunes claims that the FBI and DOJ improperly obtained surveillance on Carter Page, and presented the Steele dossier without disclosing that it had been been paid for as "oppo research" by the Clinton campaign.

The first claim is BS because Carter Page had been a person of interest since 2013 due to his extensive connections with shady Russians.

The second claim is BS because it was disclosed to FISA that the Steele dossier was gathered as "oppo research" and the court found the information to be credible anyway.


The question I have, which Trump supporters never answer, is why was Trump surrounded by all these shady Russian-connected people in the first place?  Paul Manafort and Rick Gates. Michael Flynn. Carter Page.  Is that just a coincidence?   What about all these meetings between people like Kushner and Donny Jr with Russians?  Also coincidence?

When it came to Hillary Clinton's emails, you guys were "Where there's smoke, there's fire!"

But now when it comes to all these weird connections of Trump's team to Russia, you guys are "Where there's smoke,  who put up all these smoke detectors?!?"


 -k
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Offline kimmy

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Re: The Donald Trump Thread
« Reply #1507 on: February 03, 2018, 12:32:59 pm »
The government knowingly used false evidence to spy on a the potential president of the US and proceeded to ramp it up in an attempt to impeach and overthrow that president and you call it a big nothing?  Just because people hate Trump they're willing to throw away their freedom, and the press is quite willing to throw away any semblance of integrity that they have left.  WTF is wrong with you people.

But wait, there's more!

The right-wing, non-liberal, National Review points out another problem with the memo: it confirms that the investigation was already underway in July 2016, which is before the agency took the Steele dossier to FISA in October 2016.

http://www.nationalreview.com/article/456063/nunes-memo-big-flaw-confirms-new-york-times-story

Trying to complain that the investigation is unfair because it was caused by the Steele dossier falls apart, because Nunes himself just confirmed for us that the investigation was already underway.

Nunes shot his own argument in the foot.

 -k
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Offline MH

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Re: The Donald Trump Thread
« Reply #1508 on: February 03, 2018, 12:41:09 pm »
Still, this could all work out fine.  They could discredit the FBI and maybe even trigger a dismantling of it. 

Offline Omni

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Re: The Donald Trump Thread
« Reply #1509 on: February 03, 2018, 12:54:05 pm »
Still, this could all work out fine.  They could discredit the FBI and maybe even trigger a dismantling of it.

Wait, are you suggesting dismantling the FBI would be fine? Trump and co., seem to be trying to discredit both the FBI and the DoJ to protect the boss from something he could very well not need protection from, unless of course he knows he does need that protection. There is apparently another memo that has yet to be released but, if not so heavily redacted as this current one, would refute the accusations Trump has attempted to generate against the rule of law.

Offline Squidward von Squidderson

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Re: The Donald Trump Thread
« Reply #1510 on: February 03, 2018, 01:01:44 pm »
Still, this could all work out fine.  They could discredit the FBI and maybe even trigger a dismantling of it.

Yes, Iím sure any new Trumpian law enforcement agency would be great for democracy of the USofA.  ::)

Offline wilber

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Re: The Donald Trump Thread
« Reply #1511 on: February 03, 2018, 01:05:38 pm »
Still, this could all work out fine.  They could discredit the FBI and maybe even trigger a dismantling of it.

Fine for who? Dismantle the agencies that are entrusted to make sure a government operates within the law, coupled with a Congress which thinks that is a good idea.

When Putin came to power, Russian presidential elections every four years with a two term limit. Then they went to every six years with a two term limit. Now Putin is running for a 3rd term. Next it will be president for life. How do you think these things happen?
"Never trust a man without a single redeeming vice" WSC

Offline MH

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Re: The Donald Trump Thread
« Reply #1512 on: February 03, 2018, 01:59:51 pm »
Fine for who?

Fine for Trumpistan.

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Dismantle the agencies that are entrusted to make sure a government operates within the law, coupled with a Congress which thinks that is a good idea.

When Putin came to power, Russian presidential elections every four years with a two term limit. Then they went to every six years with a two term limit. Now Putin is running for a 3rd term. Next it will be president for life. How do you think these things happen?

Exactly this way.  American democracy was not designed for mass communication and therefore it is exactly that which is challenging to bring it down. 

Offline Omni

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Re: The Donald Trump Thread
« Reply #1513 on: February 03, 2018, 03:07:33 pm »
Fine for Trumpistan.

Exactly this way.  American democracy was not designed for mass communication and therefore it is exactly that which is challenging to bring it down.

I am optimistic that it could in fact bolster democracy since it will become evident that things can't be swept under the rug so easily anymore, therefore those involved will be inclined to keep their noses clean(er). It may well bring Trump's version of democracy down though, all those tweets are starting to add up.

Offline waldo

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Re: The Donald Trump Thread
« Reply #1514 on: February 03, 2018, 03:34:17 pm »
American democracy was not designed for mass communication and therefore it is exactly that which is challenging to bring it down.

last year the Economist's 'Intelligence Unit' punted the U.S. into its "Flawed Democracy" categorization... continuing this year as shown within the recent release of 2017 rankings; the U.S. is ranked in a tie for 21st position (Canada sits in a tie for the 6th ranked spot):

These are the best democracies in the world ó and the US barely makes the list --- http://uk.businessinsider.com/economist-intelligence-unit-2017-democracy-index-best-countries-2018-1/#1-norway-98710-1

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