Author Topic: The Donald Trump Thread  (Read 60271 times)

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Offline Montgomery

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Re: The Donald Trump Thread
« Reply #6255 on: October 12, 2020, 12:55:28 pm »

Biden is a moderate democrat. That means he is on the political left, but not on the fringes. That doesn't necessarily mean he says things ONLY because they are popular. It could just mean he has selected policies that a lot of people believe in.

We disagree on that to begin with. I maintain that Biden is totally US establishment and that is not leftist by definition in any country except the US. Please try to at least understand this as being my position, because it's important. And I'm not saying you have to agree.


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You don't have to be a radical to be committed to your policies.Actually Biden has actually been fighting for action on global warming as far back as the 1980s, bringing in one of the first bills in congress to address climate changes. And this was done long before Global warming was considered a significant issue in the political landscape.

I won't dispute that but I would suggest that the US is a renegade country with it's lack of support on climate change and the politics of the people will dictate to Biden. The US establishment status quo doesn't support sociallly responsible government.

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https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2019/may/08/joe-biden/was-joe-biden-climate-change-pioneer-congress-hist/Everything Trump does on foreign relations are only for his own re-election interests.
Why are you assuming that?

I assume that because I know of nothing that can't be categorized as being that. Refute with examples if you have an interest in the argument.

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We know multiple things about Trump: That he is a narcissist (being unwilling to admit any sort of failure or mistake, even if doing so would benefit him), that is an incompetent moron who doesn't understand economics or foreign policy (the man has a string of business failures, including multiple casinos, where the business model is as simple as "customers come in, give money, and leave") and that in the rare occasions where he actually listens to the advice of others, the people he listens to are themselves either corrupt or incompetent. His decisions on trade or foreign policy are more likely to be due to those factors than they are by some sort of political calculation.

I would agree that's correct. But I think you miss my point in that Trump is clever enough to tell lies for political gain during the run-up to the election, then do something different. Specifically, demonize China on the virus, trade relations, and other issues because his base is motivated by hating outsiders and now especially the Chinese. But that attitude and position is not in sync with the US overall agenda of big business that's only concerned with more profits. In fact, none of Trump's base of ordinary people are in sync with what must become Trump's priorities. He's simply a corporate psychopath who is lying to the ignorant little people.

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Slapping tariffs on aluminium from Canada did not benefit him politically. (I doubt many of his supporters were even aware of them.) In fact, they probably hurt his political situation (given retaliatory tariffs and the general economic harm of trade barriers.)  We heard exactly the same thing in 2016. "Sure Trump is crude/brash when campaigning, but once elected he will pivot and become presidential'. But instead of getting "Trump the statesman" the U.S. got "Trump the clown". Why expect that it will somehow be different if he is re-elected in 2020?

I would suggest that retaliatory tariffs were beyond the capability of Trump's base to comprehend. Trump gets benefit out of any move against any country, due to the kneejerk mentality of his base. You should watch an hour of one of his rallies to see just what he's doing!

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Rather than him saying "Now the pressure for re-election is over, I can adopt different policies (such as reversing tariffs), his narcissism will make it impossible for him to change his policies (since that would imply he did something wrong in the first place) and he is more likely to double down, leaving the tariffs in place (possibly even increasing them) because eliminating them would suggest he made a mistake in imposing them in the first place.

Consider that what you said there. Trump changing policies is not inconsistent with his narcissism. It's not admitting that he made mistakes. But you are right about a narcissist not  being able to admit to mistakes. And so Trump has reversed many of his stupid positions while never admitting to a mistake. His base happily allows him to do that and never bring those mistakes up to question. He's more than just a narcissist in that respect, but he's still consistent with being one.

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It was Trump's incompetence that has left America with such a high casualty rate in the first place. Why exactly do you assume that after re-election, he will magically become competent?

Yes, Trump is responsible for most of the deaths due to Covid! But you've wrongly accused me of saying that Trump will beome competent. What Trump will do is get himself on the side of being right without admitting to any mistakes. His position on downplaying Covid were strictly for his political purposes and those purposes won't demand anything of him after he's elected. And furtheromre, his base will justify everything he's done with some excuse that lets him off the hook. Something perhaps as simple as just claiming that everything he did was for the sake of not scaring or alarming the American people.

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Time and time again, we have seen Trump do things which not only harm America's response to Covid-19, but also harm himself politically.
Frankly, the suggestion that Trump is doing what he does for political reasons is giving him far too much credit. He is just not that smart.The assumption of course is that the only way to bring about change is to "upset the apple cart". I personally think that's the wrong attitude to take. Positive change can also come about through gradual directed change. The U.S. didn't need riots in the streets to make people more accepting of gay marriage, or legalization of marijuana.

We don't disagree on anything concerning Trump's criminal performance that really matters. When I talk about upsetting the apple cart I mean departing for the US establishment American way, status quo. And that's where Biden comes into this conversation.

Biden won't bring about meaningful 'social' change to the US. They were corrupt and broken before Trump and there's no reason to think Biden is a gift from heaven. I really doubt that he will even be able to bring about change in health care that would at least come close to that which is taken for a right by the world's leading capitalist first world countries.

America needs a Bernie but the Dem party rejected Bernie and hijacked his chances twice because that party is afraid that the phony commie, socialist label couldn't be a winner in their country. They may have been right on that but that doesn't mean that what they really do need is a 'Bernie' who is intent on bringing about the social change they lack so desperately.

It was believed afterward that the man was a lunatic, because there was no sense in what he said. ~M.T.
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