Author Topic: Should we give up Supply Management?  (Read 300 times)

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Offline Boges

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Should we give up Supply Management?
« on: March 09, 2018, 11:53:55 am »
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2018/03/05/president-trump-said-canada-mistreats-u-s-farmers-this-is-what-he-meant/?utm_term=.a8ccd9bee0b9

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At issue, experts say, is an almost 50-year-old program that guarantees a stable, minimum income to Canadian farmers — and can disadvantage their competition. While supply management applies to poultry, eggs and dairy in Canada, the dairy system has proved most controversial, in part because of the degree to which it is restricted.

Under the system, the Canadian government limits how much milk Canadian farmers can produce, requiring them to purchase a production “quota.” Simultaneously, the government limits how much foreign milk and dairy products come into the country, slapping excess imports with tariffs of up to 313 percent.

This is straight up Communism.

How can we criticize Trump and Co regarding Steel Tarrifs when our methods of regulating our food industry is much MUCH worse.

It seems we gained a temporary reprieve from Steel and Aluminum Tarrifs but only to negotiate this issue. Can a NAFTA deal be signed with Supply management on the table?

The price we pay for Eggs, Dairy and Poultry in this country is pretty offensive. I'm all for more competition in the industry.

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Offline cybercoma

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Re: Should we give up Supply Management?
« Reply #1 on: March 09, 2018, 12:03:42 pm »
This is straight up Communism.
No it isn't. There's no such thing as partial Communism. Communism is a totality, erasing social class.

Offline Boges

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Re: Should we give up Supply Management?
« Reply #2 on: March 09, 2018, 12:04:55 pm »
No it isn't. There's no such thing as partial Communism. Communism is a totality, erasing social class.

I would think China dabbles in partial Communism. There are certainly some capitalistic elements to it.
« Last Edit: March 09, 2018, 12:11:40 pm by Boges »

Offline cybercoma

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Re: Should we give up Supply Management?
« Reply #3 on: March 09, 2018, 12:13:09 pm »
They do, but China is not actually a Communist society in the sense that Marx advocated.

Offline cybercoma

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Re: Should we give up Supply Management?
« Reply #4 on: March 09, 2018, 12:14:51 pm »
As it pertains to farmers and production "limitations." This isn't even remotely communist. In a communist society, people would produce what they need and get the value out of that. The government wouldn't dictate how much milk is produced because how much milk is produced would be exactly as much as people needed to produce for themselves.

Offline BC_cheque

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Re: Should we give up Supply Management?
« Reply #5 on: March 09, 2018, 12:15:38 pm »
The price we pay for Eggs, Dairy and Poultry in this country is pretty offensive. I'm all for more competition in the industry.

The prices in this country are equally offensive for TV's, cars, housing, clothes and anything else you can purchase within the free-market so the issue obviously more intricate than just supply-management.

Offline Boges

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Re: Should we give up Supply Management?
« Reply #6 on: March 09, 2018, 12:23:58 pm »
The prices in this country are equally offensive for TV's, cars, housing, clothes and anything else you can purchase within the free-market so the issue obviously more intricate than just supply-management.

That's because Canada doesn't have the buying power as US consumers. So they can get away with it. But in this instance the government is dictated the minimum price you can charge for the product.

Offline Boges

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Re: Should we give up Supply Management?
« Reply #7 on: March 09, 2018, 12:24:30 pm »
As it pertains to farmers and production "limitations." This isn't even remotely communist. In a communist society, people would produce what they need and get the value out of that. The government wouldn't dictate how much milk is produced because how much milk is produced would be exactly as much as people needed to produce for themselves.

Fine. Super Socialist, does that make you feel better?

Offline BC_cheque

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Re: Should we give up Supply Management?
« Reply #8 on: March 09, 2018, 12:30:13 pm »
That's because Canada doesn't have the buying power as US consumers. So they can get away with it. But in this instance the government is dictated the minimum price you can charge for the product.

That's not true, Europe has huge purchasing power and they're overcharged as we are in Canada.  Corporations charge what they can get away with.

So what you're essentially saying is that you're offended when the government gouges us, but not so much when the big corporations do.

Offline cybercoma

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Re: Should we give up Supply Management?
« Reply #9 on: March 09, 2018, 12:39:21 pm »
Fine. Super Socialist, does that make you feel better?
Absolutely it does because that's what it is.

My question to you is this then....do you think any industry should be socialized? If you accept some socialized industry, which ones and under what circumstances?

We'll certainly differ on this point. I've made it known that I believe necessities should all be socialized: health, education, food production AND distribution, telecommunications, housing/shelter, clothing, and banking. Some would characterize that as radical. I think, however, that our productive efficiencies have increased so much that there is going to come a time very soon where these things will need to be shared costs of society. There will be far more labour power than jobs for them to fill. Our society is wealthy enough that our productive capacities ought to be put to use for providing the necessities for subsistence (which will differ from society to society and across time). As a brief example, internet communication is subsistence today. It's the mode of communication for business and industry. It wasn't 50 years ago. It's also the primary mode for the transmission and storage of knowledge. In this way, it's a part of the education system as well as the economy. It's fundamental to living the minimally acceptable life in our society today.

So that's my opinion. How about you? Is it ever appropriate to social industries? Which ones? When and why?

Offline Boges

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Re: Should we give up Supply Management?
« Reply #10 on: March 09, 2018, 12:47:31 pm »
That's not true, Europe has huge purchasing power and they're overcharged as we are in Canada.  Corporations charge what they can get away with.

So what you're essentially saying is that you're offended when the government gouges us, but not so much when the big corporations do.

Governments shouldn't be gouging us. If a corporation does it, there should be competition to see that we have options.

For much of the food we eat, there is competition, but not for Dairy and Eggs. There was news recently that companies got together and colluded for the price of bread. How is that not OK but having a minimum price of Dairy is.

No matter where you go, there's a minimum price you have to pay. That's how the liqour stores run (also due to government meddling), and I don't support that either.

Offline Boges

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Re: Should we give up Supply Management?
« Reply #11 on: March 09, 2018, 12:52:51 pm »
Absolutely it does because that's what it is.

My question to you is this then....do you think any industry should be socialized? If you accept some socialized industry, which ones and under what circumstances?

We'll certainly differ on this point. I've made it known that I believe necessities should all be socialized: health, education, food production AND distribution, telecommunications, housing/shelter, clothing, and banking. Some would characterize that as radical. I think, however, that our productive efficiencies have increased so much that there is going to come a time very soon where these things will need to be shared costs of society. There will be far more labour power than jobs for them to fill. Our society is wealthy enough that our productive capacities ought to be put to use for providing the necessities for subsistence (which will differ from society to society and across time). As a brief example, internet communication is subsistence today. It's the mode of communication for business and industry. It wasn't 50 years ago. It's also the primary mode for the transmission and storage of knowledge. In this way, it's a part of the education system as well as the economy. It's fundamental to living the minimally acceptable life in our society today.

So that's my opinion. How about you? Is it ever appropriate to social industries? Which ones? When and why?

That's a pipe dream. How do you socialize clothing? everyone buys from the same government approved store? But if those are you beliefs, then good on you.

For food we require trade. There are simply foods we can't produce in this country. But then we throw up huge tariffs for a select few industries? I don't agree with it, but I understand why it's there. We want some autonomy on our farming industries. But then we can't be angry when another country tries to protect other industries in their countries with tariffs (See Trump on Steel)
« Last Edit: March 09, 2018, 12:56:36 pm by Boges »

Offline cybercoma

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Re: Should we give up Supply Management?
« Reply #12 on: March 09, 2018, 01:02:51 pm »
You didn't answer my question.

Offline SirJohn

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Re: Should we give up Supply Management?
« Reply #13 on: March 09, 2018, 02:15:48 pm »
That's because Canada doesn't have the buying power as US consumers. So they can get away with it. But in this instance the government is dictated the minimum price you can charge for the product.

I dispute this. Given free trade, why should something that sells at Home Depot in Toronto cost more than something that sells at the Home Depot in Buffalo? Why can I drive an hour south of Ottawa, cross the border, and buy something from the stores in Ogdensburg, - which is a burg - and it's cheaper than in Ottawa?

"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline SirJohn

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Re: Should we give up Supply Management?
« Reply #14 on: March 09, 2018, 02:17:27 pm »
As far as supply management goes, it benefits producers at the expense of consumers. There may be arguments to support this if the industry is essential but I don't see how that applies to dairy products.
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum