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Author Topic: Religion Culture  (Read 1905 times)

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Offline Michael Hardner

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Re: Religion Culture
« Reply #60 on: December 20, 2022, 09:25:20 am »
Oops... conincidence... the video was created by Black Dog's reference Alain de Botton's company:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_School_of_Life
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Offline Michael Hardner

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Re: Religion Culture
« Reply #61 on: December 20, 2022, 09:26:36 am »
Quote from: Queefer Sutherland on December 19, 2022, 07:49:38 pm
Religion provided other incentives and disincentives to act as "a good person".  We can act morally because we want to live a good life and not harm people, but if we also feel guilty because we "sinned" or if we fear "the wrath of God" or fear going to hell then it provides extra motivation that otherwise wouldn't be present.  So in that sense, it may force people to try to be a good person who may not always do so.  So for some it may even make it less likely that they act as a "bad person" if they believe in religion.

I'm wondering if the people who believed in the conspiracy theory of hell are the same ones who believe in the conspiracy theory of the NWO today.

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Offline Michael Hardner

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Re: Religion Culture
« Reply #62 on: December 20, 2022, 09:27:59 am »
Quote from: Queefer Sutherland on December 19, 2022, 09:14:24 pm
Oh ok, so like community-wide traditions that help unify a culture?

Didn't see this reply... YES.

I was brought up religiously and with the joy of religion so that will never leave me.  The feeling of community, purpose and positivity is unlike anything I encountered in secular life until I went to Burning Man.

The best cults are the ones you can leave anytime...
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Offline Michael Hardner

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Re: Religion Culture
« Reply #63 on: December 20, 2022, 09:29:43 am »
Quote from: segnosaur on December 20, 2022, 03:14:55 am
Actually we have secular institutions to do all that.

Governments provide a social safety net (health care to the unemployed, social assistance to those unable to work, etc.). And many secular charities exist to help fill in the gaps that governments don't fill. I can donate my penalties to unicef just as easily as I can donate to some religious group. So churches are not needed anymore to fill a charitable role anymore.

As for fostering community/social interactions... typically communities will hold many open events which will allow people to meet. And on-line forums can further provide outreach.

Charity is not the same as the social safety net provided by the state.

Charity is an emotional engagement that speaks to human values.   State welfare is a cheque printed by a computer.
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Offline Michael Hardner

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Re: Religion Culture
« Reply #64 on: December 20, 2022, 09:47:51 am »
Quote from: segnosaur on December 20, 2022, 03:44:54 am
But the problem is, the 'good' may not be one that we universally recognize as, well, good. 

The gist of your post is that religion has many problems along these lines.  But if you see it as a set of moral codes that had its roots in the laws of ancient Sumeria - they enabled living in societies and provided a social framework.

To talk about the flaws of Christians or even Christianity actually supports my argument that the good parts of religion need to be retrieved and recycled as religion utterly dies in postmodern society.
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Offline Black Dog

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Re: Religion Culture
« Reply #65 on: December 20, 2022, 12:44:28 pm »
Quote from: segnosaur on December 20, 2022, 03:14:55 am
Actually we have secular institutions to do all that.

Governments provide a social safety net (health care to the unemployed, social assistance to those unable to work, etc.). And many secular charities exist to help fill in the gaps that governments don't fill. I can donate my penalties to unicef just as easily as I can donate to some religious group. So churches are not needed anymore to fill a charitable role anymore.

Maybe, but I think you're missing out on the role of the giver here.

Quote
As for fostering community/social interactions... typically communities will hold many open events which will allow people to meet. And on-line forums can further provide outreach.

Yet loneliness and social isolation are epidemics. Churches aren't the only third place that have declined in significance as gathering places, but it's certainly a function they filled.
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Offline Michael Hardner

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Re: Religion Culture
« Reply #66 on: December 20, 2022, 01:21:29 pm »
Quote from: Black Dog on December 20, 2022, 12:44:28 pm
Yet loneliness and social isolation are epidemics. Churches aren't the only third place that have declined in significance as gathering places, but it's certainly a function they filled.

Some of the comments I receive from Burning people feeling that they belong somewhere now, having found a 'family' etc. makes me understand cults...
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Offline Black Dog

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Re: Religion Culture
« Reply #67 on: December 20, 2022, 02:49:56 pm »
Quote from: MH on December 20, 2022, 01:21:29 pm
Some of the comments I receive from Burning people feeling that they belong somewhere now, having found a 'family' etc. makes me understand cults...

Me: we need more non-religious spaces for community building

*Looks at pictures from Burning Man*

Me: Not like that.
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Offline Michael Hardner

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Re: Religion Culture
« Reply #68 on: December 20, 2022, 03:18:43 pm »
Quote from: Black Dog on December 20, 2022, 02:49:56 pm
Me: we need more non-religious spaces for community building

*Looks at pictures from Burning Man*

Me: Not like that.

You laugh but they do it properly. 

Rest assured that I don't look like those people.  When I was in the desert years ago I got word that a close family member had died.  They have this thing called 'the temple' which is a public space for quiet contemplation of whatever type you need.

I went there and there was a young guy playing like .. a lute ... and people just praying, sitting, crying .... it was powerful.  There were pictures people had tacked up of people they had lost, with  messages written... like 'miss you Sharkboy' or 'five years sober' ...
on the day after the man burn they burn the temple.

Powerful, for me.  I think maybe I cried and the lute guy hugged me.

I'm sure this all sounds ridiculous but a f***ing Tea Party guy went to the event and got turned around. 

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Offline Michael Hardner

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Re: Religion Culture
« Reply #69 on: December 20, 2022, 03:19:25 pm »


Even the cops there formed a burner sub culture...

It speaks to the disconnectedness and alienation of our current society and the longing for meaning.
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Offline Black Dog

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Re: Religion Culture
« Reply #70 on: December 20, 2022, 04:29:40 pm »
Quote from: MH on December 20, 2022, 03:19:25 pm

Even the cops there formed a burner sub culture...

It speaks to the disconnectedness and alienation of our current society and the longing for meaning.

Or the power of capital to subsume everything, including critiques and alternative social arrangements.
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Offline Michael Hardner

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Re: Religion Culture
« Reply #71 on: December 20, 2022, 05:25:43 pm »
Quote from: Black Dog on December 20, 2022, 04:29:40 pm
Or the power of capital to subsume everything, including critiques and alternative social arrangements.

It's culturally odd because money is not part of it.  Commerce is essentially banned.

You can see people who were born wealthy not handling this well....  We camped with some lawyer guy from LA in our camp and whenever I tried to talk to him he was unable to communicate around group tasks.  I'm guessing he was used to servants.

Hegel I think described the slave dialectic, whereby the slave owner himself is enslaved without realizing it.
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Offline Queefer Sutherland

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Re: Religion Culture
« Reply #72 on: December 20, 2022, 08:55:03 pm »
Quote from: segnosaur on December 19, 2022, 11:21:33 am
You are of course assuming those particular things were major tenants of religious thought. However, time and time again we have seen that rather than following those basic guidelines, religion has been used to do the opposite. Modern evangelicals preach "prosperity gospel" (i.e. the opposite of 'non-materialism' and 'sharing'). Slavery in 1800s america was justified by many using the bible (such much for 'pluralism').

Those particular aspects can be established just as easily (if not more so) in a secular society that has rejected religion as a useless dogma that often divides.In the past the 'church' was a major conduit for charity. (Not that they were a particularly GOOD source of charity, as they had their own abuses of resources.)

And it can serve as a way for people to interact (i.e. a social club for people who might otherwise be isolated.)

The argument that MH is making isn't that religion is overall "good" or better than atheism and therefore should have a resurgence etc, he's saying that some things have been lost or declined and not 100% recovered within the decline of religion.

An example is if most people in the community were meeting at church regularly or semi-regularly you have a sense of frequent shared community coming together in one place that isn't really replicated now, and if it is it usually doesn't happen as regularly.

If we can point out positive aspects that have been lost then maybe we can figure out ways to recreate some of them in our modern more secular society.
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Offline Queefer Sutherland

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Re: Religion Culture
« Reply #73 on: December 20, 2022, 08:57:54 pm »
Quote from: MH on December 20, 2022, 09:29:43 am
Charity is not the same as the social safety net provided by the state.

Charity is an emotional engagement that speaks to human values.   State welfare is a cheque printed by a computer.

I agree.  It's a different process.  State welfare is provided by taxes which are taken from people, not given.
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Offline Queefer Sutherland

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Re: Religion Culture
« Reply #74 on: December 20, 2022, 09:03:20 pm »
Quote from: MH on December 20, 2022, 01:21:29 pm
Some of the comments I receive from Burning people feeling that they belong somewhere now, having found a 'family' etc. makes me understand cults...

That's a good point.  Yes a lot of cult worshippers are basically vulnerable people lost and looking for belonging. Some are young and from broken homes etc.

I studied gangs once, an argument is they also provide a family and sense of belonging/fellowship, and members are often from broken families too.

But you don't need to be "lost" to enjoy that sense of belonging.
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