Author Topic: Muslims in America Poll  (Read 121 times)

Offline MH

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Muslims in America Poll
« on: July 26, 2017, 06:46:54 am »
http://www.cnn.com/2017/07/26/us/pew-muslim-american-survey/index.html

While the mushy liberal in me loves to read this result, the statistician in me is weary.  Over 50% of American Muslims say " society should approve of homosexuality ".  Ok, but it's one poll.

Does anybody have recent polls in Canada/US ?  I'm not in as interested in European models, as they tend to isolate non-homogeneous groups more from my experience.

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Offline waldo

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Re: Muslims in America Poll
« Reply #1 on: July 26, 2017, 09:11:52 am »
http://www.cnn.com/2017/07/26/us/pew-muslim-american-survey/index.html

Over 50% of American Muslims say " society should approve of homosexuality ".  Ok, but it's one poll.

in 2017, 52% approve... up from the prior 2007 PEW polling/survey result of 27% approve

but hey now, waddabout that same PEW questioning of Christians in America done in 2014: 54% of all Christian flavours approved (Evangelical Protestants @ 36%; Mormons @ 36%)... up from the prior 2007 PEW polling/survey result of 44% of all Christian flavours approved

Offline SirJohn

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Re: Muslims in America Poll
« Reply #2 on: July 26, 2017, 12:05:16 pm »
in 2017, 52% approve... up from the prior 2007 PEW polling/survey result of 27% approve

but hey now, waddabout that same PEW questioning of Christians in America done in 2014: 54% of all Christian flavours approved (Evangelical Protestants @ 36%; Mormons @ 36%)... up from the prior 2007 PEW polling/survey result of 44% of all Christian flavours approved

The difference between Western Christians and Muslims, who generally originate elsewhere, is that while western Christians might not 'approve' they generally don't want gay people killed.

To quote Douglas Murray to a crowd talking about how they had decided to boycott the pope's visit "Yes, yes, well, I'm tired of hearing about how you're boycotting the pope. I'm a gay man. I'd like to see the Catholic church approve of gay marriage, but they're not going to. Meanwhile, I wish people who are proud of their boycotting of the pope would put a little thought and effort into the people who want to throw me off a cliff."

Offline cybercoma

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Re: Muslims in America Poll
« Reply #3 on: July 26, 2017, 12:13:28 pm »
http://www.cnn.com/2017/07/26/us/pew-muslim-american-survey/index.html

While the mushy liberal in me loves to read this result, the statistician in me is weary.  Over 50% of American Muslims say " society should approve of homosexuality ".  Ok, but it's one poll.

Does anybody have recent polls in Canada/US ?  I'm not in as interested in European models, as they tend to isolate non-homogeneous groups more from my experience.
Meanwhile, generally 62% of Americans approve of gay marriage, up from 57% in 2001. http://www.pewforum.org/fact-sheet/changing-attitudes-on-gay-marriage/

If you look further down the table only 35% of evangelical Christians approve. They're literally far less tolerant than Muslims. Republicans likewise stand at only 40% approving. They're also far less tolerant.



Offline MH

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Re: Muslims in America Poll
« Reply #4 on: July 26, 2017, 12:50:03 pm »
The difference between Western Christians and Muslims, who generally originate elsewhere, is that while western Christians might not 'approve' they generally don't want gay people killed.

But the poll shows acceptance by Muslims to be on par with Christians in America.  Do you have a response to that ?

Offline SirJohn

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Re: Muslims in America Poll
« Reply #5 on: July 26, 2017, 06:18:22 pm »
But the poll shows acceptance by Muslims to be on par with Christians in America.  Do you have a response to that ?

It sounds cautiously optimistic, but I'd be happier if they were asked if they personally approved, or if there were blunter language, as in the UK where they were asked if homosexuality should be criminalized (majority said yes).

This is similar to the discussion which took place in (cough cough) another location, about the survey of Canadian Muslims showing they were proud of being Canadian. This was taken to mean they were approving of Canadian values, but an even larger percentage of Muslims in a similar poll in the UK said they were proud of being British, and yet they still had some disturbing social views, including about terrorism. The Canadian survey, by Environics, was not so blunt or rude as to ask questions like that.

One interesting aspect of the poll was whether Muslims wanted to adopt Canadian customs. 55% said yes, but that still leaves a significant minority which doesn't think much of our customs.

http://www.environicsinstitute.org/uploads/institute-projects/survey%20of%20muslims%20in%20canada%202016%20-%20final%20report.pdf

Offline SirJohn

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Re: Muslims in America Poll
« Reply #6 on: July 26, 2017, 06:21:24 pm »
But the poll shows acceptance by Muslims to be on par with Christians in America.  Do you have a response to that ?

My wariness about Muslim values is less about whether they approve of homosexuals than whether they'll make a bomb and blow them up. I don't care whether Catholics approve of homosexuals. They're not going to do anything about their disapproval.

Offline the_squid

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Re: Muslims in America Poll
« Reply #7 on: July 26, 2017, 07:21:07 pm »
The question is pretty vague...   

"approve" might mean "not kill them" to someone, while to another it may mean full legal rights to marriage, adoption, etc.

The language in the poll needs to be less ambiguous before I take it seriously.  It should have asked "should gays be afforded full legal rights to marriage, blah, blah, blah"...   I suspect the results would have been different.
« Last Edit: July 26, 2017, 07:30:36 pm by the_squid »

Offline MH

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Re: Muslims in America Poll
« Reply #8 on: July 27, 2017, 10:53:54 am »
My wariness about Muslim values is less about whether they approve of homosexuals than whether they'll make a bomb and blow them up. I don't care whether Catholics approve of homosexuals. They're not going to do anything about their disapproval.

Ok, but it seems to me that a plank of your opposition in the past has been that Muslims are less likely to adopt Western values.  In this instance, for what the poll is worth, there seems to be something significant in the change that's happening.

If it's true, I owe it to the (North) American melting pot concept.

Offline SirJohn

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Re: Muslims in America Poll
« Reply #9 on: July 27, 2017, 11:11:36 am »
Ok, but it seems to me that a plank of your opposition in the past has been that Muslims are less likely to adopt Western values.  In this instance, for what the poll is worth, there seems to be something significant in the change that's happening.

If it's true, I owe it to the (North) American melting pot concept.

Perhaps, but as I pointed out, the poll in Canada showed that large numbers of Muslims had little desire to adopt western values, and that Muslims in Canada are becoming more religious, not less, particularly the ones born in Canada, and more, not less likely to adopt the most conservative religious views on women, including the need to always cover themselves up in sheets and towels.

Some would say, well, what they wear is irrelevant, but that's nonsense. Wearing burkas and even hijabs is a defiant statement that in a choice between Canadian values and Muslim values they choose the latter. You don't wear a hijab and believe in gender equality because the hijab is a definitive statement about the danger of female sexuality and the need for females to protect males from arousal by covering themselves at all times.

As to the 'melting pot' I do believe it has influence, as Muslims in North American appear to be less rabidly defiant in their cultural beliefs than most of their counterparts in Europe. I might point out, however, that progressives have been fairly vociferous in opposing the melting pot and in encouraging immigrants to retain their own cultures.
« Last Edit: July 27, 2017, 11:15:08 am by SirJohn »

Offline MH

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Re: Muslims in America Poll
« Reply #10 on: July 27, 2017, 11:39:02 am »
Perhaps, but as I pointed out, the poll in Canada showed that large numbers of Muslims had little desire to adopt western values, and that Muslims in Canada are becoming more religious, not less, particularly the ones born in Canada, and more, not less likely to adopt the most conservative religious views on women, including the need to always cover themselves up in sheets and towels.

As such, I accept your assertion and submit that this poll is at odds with what you have discovered.  We will have to wait and see how this progresses.

Progressives that dismiss the 'melting pot' do so as a point of national pride, in my experience.  But the fact is that we have a melting pot and even progressives will paradoxically applaud immigrants adopting Canadian values.  Multiculturalism is, to such people, government money for folk dancing festivals and a badge of differentiation from the States.
 
But the reality is that pluralism is a better course (if I have to say so) and the Muslims I have spoken to, who come from factionalized societies, recognize it.

Offline waldo

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Re: Muslims in America Poll
« Reply #11 on: July 27, 2017, 11:42:10 am »
The difference between Western Christians and Muslims, who generally originate elsewhere, is that while western Christians might not 'approve' they generally don't want gay people killed.

do you have a, uhhh... generally... stated/claimed cited source providing a percentage value for just how many Western Muslims want gay people killed... generally! Can you also provide a somewhat narrowed focus percentage value for North American Muslims (also as a cited source)?

Offline dia

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Re: Muslims in America Poll
« Reply #12 on: July 27, 2017, 02:35:58 pm »
do you have a, uhhh... generally... stated/claimed cited source providing a percentage value for just how many Western Muslims want gay people killed... generally! Can you also provide a somewhat narrowed focus percentage value for North American Muslims (also as a cited source)?
Generally speaking it would seem that if a Muslim disapproves of homosexuality, SJ interprets that as meaning that the Muslim in question wants to kill homosexuals.  This seems to be based s based on a story out of Iraq, I believe, where ISIS members did throw a gay person off a roof.  Therefore it is only a matter of time until there is an epidemic of Muslims killing gays in Canada.   
Discussion is impossible with someone who claims not to seek the truth, but already to possess it.

Offline BC_cheque

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Re: Muslims in America Poll
« Reply #13 on: July 27, 2017, 03:05:04 pm »
Generally speaking it would seem that if a Muslim disapproves of homosexuality, SJ interprets that as meaning that the Muslim in question wants to kill homosexuals.  This seems to be based s based on a story out of Iraq, I believe, where ISIS members did throw a gay person off a roof.  Therefore it is only a matter of time until there is an epidemic of Muslims killing gays in Canada.

There was a transgender woman who was beat up and killed in Brazil.  Someone filmed the last moments of her life as she sat there bloodied, just before a group of men carried her away and beat her to death.  For some unfortunate reason I watched that video and I can't unsee it as long as I live.

I can't dispute that Muslims are pretty bad, but fatal attacks on LGBT is hardly a Muslim phenomenon.

Offline SirJohn

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Re: Muslims in America Poll
« Reply #14 on: July 27, 2017, 04:11:38 pm »
Generally speaking it would seem that if a Muslim disapproves of homosexuality, SJ interprets that as meaning that the Muslim in question wants to kill homosexuals.  This seems to be based s based on a story out of Iraq, I believe, where ISIS members did throw a gay person off a roof.  Therefore it is only a matter of time until there is an epidemic of Muslims killing gays in Canada.

No, this is based on the koran, and its teachings. If Catholics were taught that gays should be killed, and they were anything like as observant and devoted as Muslims I'd be concerned about them too, but they aren't. You continue to blithely assume that dedicated, religious people will pay no attention to antisocial moral views of their own doctrines.