Author Topic: Incomes Collapsing in the US  (Read 2317 times)

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Offline SirJohn

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Re: Incomes Collapsing in the US
« Reply #60 on: February 18, 2017, 11:19:48 am »
I picked one of the measures you suggested (total, 1%) and saw that it in fact did not peak in 2006 but continued to increase yearly with the exception of 2009 where it decreased only marginally and then started to soar back up.

It said 'top end income shares' not 'total top end income'. You provided a figure which shows the total average income has increased over time but that in no way contradicts the statement that the share of the total income taken in by the 1% has fallen as compared to the whole.
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Offline ?Impact

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Re: Incomes Collapsing in the US
« Reply #61 on: February 18, 2017, 11:37:49 am »
It said 'top end income shares' not 'total top end income'. You provided a figure which shows the total average income has increased over time but that in no way contradicts the statement that the share of the total income taken in by the 1% has fallen as compared to the whole.

I see you are implying that unless the top 1% are taking more and more of the pie then something is wrong with the world. There is no opportunity to improve the lot of the rest.

Offline SirJohn

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Re: Incomes Collapsing in the US
« Reply #62 on: February 18, 2017, 11:46:21 am »
I see you are implying that unless the top 1% are taking more and more of the pie then something is wrong with the world. There is no opportunity to improve the lot of the rest.

Uhm no. I'm saying that in a discussion on income inequality you need a comparison point. According to the information I and Cybercoma posted the share of total incomes the 1% have been taking has fallen (in Canada), not risen, in the last ten years.
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline Blueblood

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Re: Incomes Collapsing in the US
« Reply #63 on: February 19, 2017, 10:11:45 am »
I see you are implying that unless the top 1% are taking more and more of the pie then something is wrong with the world. There is no opportunity to improve the lot of the rest.

The pie also gets bigger...

Offline ?Impact

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Re: Incomes Collapsing in the US
« Reply #64 on: February 19, 2017, 10:22:29 am »
The pie also gets bigger...

Yes, but to put in in context. Between 2006-2014, the top 1% increased their own income by more than the median income, and over 80% of the average income of everyone. You could say that while the guy at the bottom got a cherry on top of his slice, the 1% got another whole pie.

Offline Blueblood

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Re: Incomes Collapsing in the US
« Reply #65 on: February 19, 2017, 12:06:19 pm »
Yes, but to put in in context. Between 2006-2014, the top 1% increased their own income by more than the median income, and over 80% of the average income of everyone. You could say that while the guy at the bottom got a cherry on top of his slice, the 1% got another whole pie.

So the 1% makes money?  The poor still have their tvs, food, internet, and computers.  By all means put it in context, the poor in Canada have a better standard of living compared to others in the world.

Offline TimG

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Re: Incomes Collapsing in the US
« Reply #66 on: March 25, 2019, 01:44:12 pm »
Fascinating chart:

« Last Edit: March 25, 2019, 01:52:04 pm by TimG »

Offline cybercoma

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Re: Incomes Collapsing in the US
« Reply #67 on: March 25, 2019, 04:19:34 pm »
Nice again you miss the point. Wealth polarity is BAD. Your chart shows an increasing DISPARITY, which is tied to a decline in social cohesion that leads to all sorts of disastrous outcomes from poorer health across the board to more social problems like crime. That trend you’re showing is not a good thing.

Offline TimG

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Re: Incomes Collapsing in the US
« Reply #68 on: March 25, 2019, 04:33:56 pm »
Nice again you miss the point. Wealth polarity is BAD. Your chart shows an increasing DISPARITY, which is tied to a decline in social cohesion that leads to all sorts of disastrous outcomes from poorer health across the board to more social problems like crime. That trend you’re showing is not a good thing.
The chart shows the number of people at the *bottom* declining too (37% to 29%) so your narrative fails. The data seems to show pretty clearly that american householders are getting richer on average. 

Most of the charts you see will fix the upper tier as a % of the population and then report all sorts stats based on that fixed percentage. But those analyses hide the fact that the dividing line between the middle and upper tiers is increasing in time so the middle is wealthier too. This chart illustrates how much that line has risen. It is fascinating how different presentations of the same data can be used to draw radically different conclusions.
« Last Edit: March 25, 2019, 04:35:34 pm by TimG »

Offline JMT

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Re: Incomes Collapsing in the US
« Reply #69 on: March 25, 2019, 05:16:41 pm »
The chart shows the number of people at the *bottom* declining too (37% to 29%) so your narrative fails. The data seems to show pretty clearly that american householders are getting richer on average. 

Apparently you're responding to someone else, because that in no way addresses what he said.
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Offline TimG

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Re: Incomes Collapsing in the US
« Reply #70 on: March 25, 2019, 05:27:13 pm »
Apparently you're responding to someone else, because that in no way addresses what he said.
There is nothing in that chart that supports the notion that wealth polarity is increasing. If anything it shows that wealth is becoming more evening distributed as more and more of the middle class move into upper income levels.
« Last Edit: March 25, 2019, 05:41:21 pm by TimG »

Offline cybercoma

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Re: Incomes Collapsing in the US
« Reply #71 on: March 25, 2019, 05:47:01 pm »
“Dreamed up” because the research shows this is disastrous and you don’t want to believe it. Nobody in their right mind, no one who researches these things for a living anyway, would look at those charts and see a net positive. You’re looking at a society that’s becoming more polarized. There’s nothing positive about that—the consequences I’ve linked to in past. Absolute wealth is not protective against the effective of relative inequality. That’s a fact.

Offline Queefer Sutherland

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Re: Incomes Collapsing in the US
« Reply #72 on: March 25, 2019, 05:47:09 pm »
It does seem like more people are either well-off or poor.  Guess this helps explain it.

Less poor people and more people making more than 100k seems like a good thing.  But we can't ignore what cyber is saying.  What negatives are we finding from this?

Here's one - US life expectancy has dropped for 3 years in a row for the first time in 100 years:

https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2017/03/23/521083335/the-forces-driving-middle-aged-white-peoples-deaths-of-despair
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Offline TimG

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Re: Incomes Collapsing in the US
« Reply #73 on: March 25, 2019, 06:03:16 pm »
Less poor people and more people making more than 100k seems like a good thing.  But we can't ignore what cyber is saying.  What negatives are we finding from this?
It is all about narrative. Cyber favours certain policies and only cares about statistics and studies that support his predetermined policy choices. I am more interested in understanding what is going on with all of the contradictions and complexity that are an inevitable part of the real world (note I made no editorial statement on what the chart might mean - only that it was interesting). In this case, people are getting wealthier and there are fewer poor people but the super wealthy are getting wealthier faster. Is that a problem? I am not convinced as long as the poor are getting wealthier but these things can become self-fulling prophesies. i.e. if you spend enough time telling people that the things that their lives are bad and getting worse the more they believe it even if the facts don't support it.
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Offline eyeball

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Re: Incomes Collapsing in the US
« Reply #74 on: March 25, 2019, 07:38:15 pm »
This concern over income equality needs to have a reality check.
I'd do that by pointing to the unequal access to power and influence that wealth enjoys.  The concern over unequal outcomes is seriously misplaced, and probably intentionally  - it only distracts from where inequality really impacts our society the hardest.

I've said it before and will continue saying it till I die, outlawing in-camera lobbying would be a huge equalizer.  Redistribute power, wealth will just naturally follow.
« Last Edit: March 25, 2019, 07:56:41 pm by eyeball »