Author Topic: Glitch in the Theocratic Matrix  (Read 1751 times)

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Offline Michael Hardner

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Re: Glitch in the Theocratic Matrix
« Reply #15 on: November 03, 2018, 06:23:52 am »
The issue needs to be de-militarized.

One pathetic refugee does not make for an 'invasion'.  This is not a principle but a practical matter.  We can afford to accept refugee claimants.  Whatever these border crossings are, the legal status makes them difficult to deal with.  We could patch that hole by humane means though.


Offline SirJohn

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Re: Glitch in the Theocratic Matrix
« Reply #16 on: November 03, 2018, 09:34:15 am »
The issue needs to be de-militarized.

One pathetic refugee does not make for an 'invasion'.  This is not a principle but a practical matter.  We can afford to accept refugee claimants.  Whatever these border crossings are, the legal status makes them difficult to deal with.  We could patch that hole by humane means though.

It's not that simple. The legal system makes everything complex. Yes, one refugee does not make an invasion. Thousands and thousands of them can. Trump can bluster all he wants, but just like Canada, if they walk up to a border crossing and claim political asylum they can't be turned away. Then the lawyers get at it. Right now in Canada, the first hearing an asylum claimant is being offered is 2 years away. Then you have the immigration board appeal, then it goes to the federal courts, and five or six years later they're still here on social assistance and have had a couple of kids, and now what do you do?

As I said in another post, this is only going to get worse. If, as the climate types suggest, the earth gets hotter, we're going to see caravan after caravan. Potentially tens of millions of people migrating to the north. Do we let them all in even if it destabilizes us and destroys the welfare state?
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

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Re: Glitch in the Theocratic Matrix
« Reply #17 on: November 03, 2018, 12:22:14 pm »
As I said in another post, this is only going to get worse. If, as the climate types suggest, the earth gets hotter, we're going to see caravan after caravan. Potentially tens of millions of people migrating to the north. Do we let them all in even if it destabilizes us and destroys the welfare state?

I have said previously that the government, either this one or the next, will have to figure out how we are going to deal with walk-in refugees exactly because I expect we will be inundated with climate refugees.  Of course, we will be destabilized anyway - starvation and disease will accomplish that much more effectively than refugees.

Come to think of it, if the refugees are uneducated farmer types, they're likely exactly the type we would need to mitigate the disaster and rebuild Canada.

Offline Omni

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Re: Glitch in the Theocratic Matrix
« Reply #18 on: November 03, 2018, 12:56:44 pm »
I believe it was Gwynne Dyer's book "Climate Wars" where he claimed that the US had tested and contemplated the future installation along their southern border, of guns that would aim and fire whenever there was an infra red signal, such as would emanate from a human body crossing their border at any remote location. This was in anticipation of the northward migration of people as global warming destroyed their agriculture. Such a concept made the hair on the back of my neck stand up back then, and that was well before anybody considered the likes of Donald Trump being in control.     

guest7

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Re: Glitch in the Theocratic Matrix
« Reply #19 on: November 03, 2018, 01:30:28 pm »
I believe it was Gwynne Dyer's book "Climate Wars" where he claimed that the US had tested and contemplated the future installation along their southern border, of guns that would aim and fire whenever there was an infra red signal, such as would emanate from a human body crossing their border at any remote location. This was in anticipation of the northward migration of people as global warming destroyed their agriculture. Such a concept made the hair on the back of my neck stand up back then, and that was well before anybody considered the likes of Donald Trump being in control.     

I'm sure Gwynne Dyer is wrong about that. 

They could use drones and get them before they even get to the border.

Offline Omni

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Re: Glitch in the Theocratic Matrix
« Reply #20 on: November 03, 2018, 01:44:34 pm »
I'm sure Gwynne Dyer is wrong about that. 

They could use drones and get them before they even get to the border.

Except you create a bit of a legal problem doing that.
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Offline kimmy

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Re: Glitch in the Theocratic Matrix
« Reply #21 on: November 03, 2018, 01:48:00 pm »
Except you create a bit of a legal problem doing that.

So does the automated guns idea.  All of it creates a bit of a legal problem.

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Offline Queefer Sutherland

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Re: Glitch in the Theocratic Matrix
« Reply #22 on: November 03, 2018, 01:49:21 pm »
The issue needs to be de-militarized.

One pathetic refugee does not make for an 'invasion'.  This is not a principle but a practical matter.  We can afford to accept refugee claimants.  Whatever these border crossings are, the legal status makes them difficult to deal with.  We could patch that hole by humane means though.

One refugee isn't an invasion, no.  But then when you have 5000 of them coming all at once via caravan, does a country have to be prepared for the possibility that if many of them don't go to an official border entry, or are rejected at the official entry, many may attempt to cross into the US illegally and disappear forever into the continental US without status like millions have done before them, which is completely illegal and not protected by any refugee law or UN convention?  How do you stop them?  With lawyers and social workers?

I don't agree with Trump's rhetoric at all, but enough is enough.
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guest7

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Re: Glitch in the Theocratic Matrix
« Reply #23 on: November 03, 2018, 01:53:38 pm »
Except you create a bit of a legal problem doing that.

I don't think they would care.  You piqued my interest so I looked up a PDF online.  He's quite prescient.

Since the final collapse of the European Union
in 2036, under the stress of mass migration from the southern to
the  northern  members,  the  reconfigured  Northern  Union
(France, Benelux, Germany, Scandinavia, Poland and the old
Habsburg domains) has succeeded in closing its borders to any
further refugees from the  famine- stricken Mediterranean coun-
tries. Italy, south of Rome, has been largely overrun by refugees
from even  harder- hit North African countries and is no longer
part of an organized state, but Spain, Padania (northern Italy)
and Turkey have all acquired nuclear weapons and are seeking
(with little success) to enforce food sharing on the  better- fed
countries of northern Europe. Britain, which has managed to
make itself just about  self- sufficient in food by dint of a great
national effort, has withdrawn from the continent and shelters
behind its enhanced nuclear deterrent.
Yay for Britain!

Brazil and Argentina still manage to feed themselves, but Mexico has been expelled from
the North American Free Trade Area, leaving the United States
and Canada with just enough food and water to maintain at
least  a  shadow  of  their  former  lifestyles.  The  Wall  along  the
U.S.-Mexican border is still holding.

I don't think "legal" is going to enter into it.
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Offline Queefer Sutherland

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Re: Glitch in the Theocratic Matrix
« Reply #24 on: November 03, 2018, 02:00:02 pm »
So does the automated guns idea.  All of it creates a bit of a legal problem.

No automated guns, no drones, no wall, no military.  What is the answer then?  A moat?  A sonic barrier?  A polite sign? 

The violence idea isn't a good one.  People getting shot is horrible.  With the Canada/US border, a wall/barrier is completely not feasible due to cost.
"Nipples is one of the great minds of our time!" - Bubbermiley

Offline Omni

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Re: Glitch in the Theocratic Matrix
« Reply #25 on: November 03, 2018, 02:01:43 pm »
I don't think they would care.  You piqued my interest so I looked up a PDF online.  He's quite prescient.

Since the final collapse of the European Union
in 2036, under the stress of mass migration from the southern to
the  northern  members,  the  reconfigured  Northern  Union
(France, Benelux, Germany, Scandinavia, Poland and the old
Habsburg domains) has succeeded in closing its borders to any
further refugees from the  famine- stricken Mediterranean coun-
tries. Italy, south of Rome, has been largely overrun by refugees
from even  harder- hit North African countries and is no longer
part of an organized state, but Spain, Padania (northern Italy)
and Turkey have all acquired nuclear weapons and are seeking
(with little success) to enforce food sharing on the  better- fed
countries of northern Europe. Britain, which has managed to
make itself just about  self- sufficient in food by dint of a great
national effort, has withdrawn from the continent and shelters
behind its enhanced nuclear deterrent.
Yay for Britain!

Brazil and Argentina still manage to feed themselves, but Mexico has been expelled from
the North American Free Trade Area, leaving the United States
and Canada with just enough food and water to maintain at
least  a  shadow  of  their  former  lifestyles.  The  Wall  along  the
U.S.-Mexican border is still holding.

I don't "legal" is going to enter into it.

Are you serious? First of all if you fly into another country to kill people then YOU are the invader. Not the other way around as Trump likes to say. How would you know everyone you shoot was intending on jumping the border? Not to mention how many bullets do you think a drone will carry, and how many will it shoot before it gets shot down? Nah I think you need to go back to the drawing board.

Offline JMT

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Re: Glitch in the Theocratic Matrix
« Reply #26 on: November 03, 2018, 02:07:53 pm »
One refugee isn't an invasion, no.  But then when you have 5000 of them coming all at once via caravan,

First, that's actual fake news - the caravan is shrinking by the day.

Second, even if it was 5000 - we're talking about a country of 325 million people.  That's less than a drop in the bucket.  That's far less than one day's intake of immigrants and refugees.  It's nothing.

For context, Canada has taken in over 42,000 asylum claimants that have crossed from the US - has your life changed?  Have we been invaded?

guest7

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Re: Glitch in the Theocratic Matrix
« Reply #27 on: November 03, 2018, 02:08:15 pm »
Are you serious? First of all if you fly into another country to kill people then YOU are the invader. Not the other way around as Trump likes to say. How would you know everyone you shoot was intending on jumping the border? Not to mention how many bullets do you think a drone will carry, and how many will it shoot before it gets shot down? Nah I think you need to go back to the drawing board.

The drawing board would be in 2036.  Neither of us can even imagine what would be on that board.  I don't think you would need bullets.

These would be fairly old technology by then. 



But that said, if you're married to the infra-red gun idea i'm sure that works too.

Offline Omni

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Re: Glitch in the Theocratic Matrix
« Reply #28 on: November 03, 2018, 02:09:07 pm »
So does the automated guns idea.  All of it creates a bit of a legal problem.

 -k

It does but if I remember the details in the book, the plan was build a second fence along the border, (not a Trump wall) and the space between the two would be considered a no mans land and that's where you get shot. I wouldn't think that makes it not a legal problem but it apparently muddies the water somewhat.

guest4

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Re: Glitch in the Theocratic Matrix
« Reply #29 on: November 03, 2018, 02:10:33 pm »
  Yay for Britain!
Geez, Argus was right about you immigrants!  No bloody loyalty! 

Quote
I don't "legal" is going to enter into it.
Eventually, for sure.  But initially I am sure there would be some effort to maintain the values Canada currently stands for - fairness, equality and humanity.  The sooner the government comes up with an effective plan for refugees crossing our borders now, the longer we can continue to view ourselves as humanistic when the real migration begins.

Of course, if Trump does get that wall built, it would certainly help slow the influx of desperate people.  Maybe we shouldn't be so hasty to judge him wrong, after all.