Author Topic: Ghost Guns  (Read 168 times)

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Offline SirJohn

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Re: Ghost Guns
« Reply #15 on: August 05, 2018, 04:21:16 pm »

Follow the thread.  Impact was proposing that the real danger is the possibility of a gun that can go through metal detectors easily.   Without non-metal bullets, that isn't really going to matter.

 -k

But given the glaring inaccuracies and failure rate of screeners and their equipment, removing more metal makes it that much more likely the guns can get through. Besides, these screeners seem to present more of a deterrent in theory than reality.

https://www.cnn.com/2015/06/01/politics/tsa-failed-undercover-airport-screening-tests/index.html

https://onemileatatime.com/tsa-fails-tests-95-percent/
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Offline kimmy

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Re: Ghost Guns
« Reply #16 on: August 05, 2018, 08:19:16 pm »
It doesn't even matter.  The use case for a 3d-printed gun is vanishingly small, at least until such time as 3d printers can also print bullets. (hint: that's not any time soon.)

If you're a gang member or drug dealer or whatever, you already have access to firearms even without a PAL or RPAL.  You don't want a 3d printed piece of crap, you want a professionally manufactured gun you can trust.

If you're an angry incel and you want to shoot people but you don't have a gun, a 3d printer can get you a gun but you still need a PAL to obtain bullets.  Rent a van instead.

If you're an aspiring terrorist, a 3d printed gun only makes sense if you're trying to smuggle it onto an airplane. If you're not going to get on an airplane, get a real gun or rent a van. A 3d printed gun will fail miserably and make you look like a complete joke. Other terrorists will laugh at you.  If you are trying to smuggle a weapon onto a plane, a 3d printed gun isn't any good without bullets, and bullets set off metal detectors.  Make a chemical weapon of some kind instead.  Or use a hand weapon made of Zytel or fibreglass.

But given the glaring inaccuracies and failure rate of screeners and their equipment, removing more metal makes it that much more likely the guns can get through. Besides, these screeners seem to present more of a deterrent in theory than reality.

Bob Smith the undercover TSA tester might be able to sneak stuff through TSA screeners pretty regularly, but he has the benefit of knowing that if he gets caught, he's just doing his job.  Suq Maddiq and Munchma Quchi don't have that luxury, and they're probably going to get an awful lot more scrutiny than Bob Smith anyway.

And bingo, right on time the TSA proposes stopping screening at 150 small or medium sized airports. ISIS buys a 3d printer....boom.

You're usually among those pointing out that the fear of terrorism is actually quite overblown, aren't you?  I assure you, the fear of terrorists with 3d printers is even more overblown.

 -k
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Offline Omni

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Re: Ghost Guns
« Reply #17 on: August 05, 2018, 08:30:38 pm »
We'll see what happens when the terrorists actually get their 3d printers. Until then I will use your blind hope to give me confidence that they don't use them how I expect they will.

Offline kimmy

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Re: Ghost Guns
« Reply #18 on: August 05, 2018, 08:37:13 pm »
Terrorists already have 3d printers.   They're not expensive to obtain and not complicated to operate.  Remember, the "Liberator" 3d printed gun has been available on the internet for 5 years. Terrorists could be making them already, but they aren't. That's because 3d printed guns suck compared to the real thing.  And bullets still set off metal detectors, regardless what kind of gun you plan to fire them from.

 -k
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Offline Omni

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Re: Ghost Guns
« Reply #19 on: August 05, 2018, 08:40:35 pm »
Terrorists already have 3d printers.   They're not expensive to obtain and not complicated to operate.  Remember, the "Liberator" 3d printed gun has been available on the internet for 5 years. Terrorists could be making them already, but they aren't. That's because 3d printed guns suck compared to the real thing.  And bullets still set off metal detectors, regardless what kind of gun you plan to fire them from.

 -k

Except this is not specifically about taking guns on planes. There is no metal detector between my basement and my street.

Offline ?Impact

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Re: Ghost Guns
« Reply #20 on: August 05, 2018, 08:43:42 pm »
Even if one supposes that something other than metal could be used for the bullet, the idea of a non-metallic casing is pretty far fetched.

I agree, effective ammunition is a challenge. It would be hard to replace metal for the casing, but if you sacrifice velocity and size  it would be possible; remember gun powder has been encased in paper for centuries for relatively slow projectiles (fireworks/rockets). The question is how large does it have to be to get acceptable velocity. If you goal is to make something lethal at short distance (eg. less than 100') then you don't have the same requirements as a long distance armor piercing round. My thought is a ceramic projectile, and a carbon fiber casing. I think a big challenge would be ensuring the casing is not too deformed after firing so it can still be ejected from the chamber.

Offline kimmy

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Re: Ghost Guns
« Reply #21 on: August 05, 2018, 09:02:07 pm »
Except this is not specifically about taking guns on planes. There is no metal detector between my basement and my street.

But if somebody wants to commit mayhem someplace that isn't screened by metal detectors, then they have way better options than a piece of crap plastic gun.  Real guns, for example.  Or vehicles. Or knives, axes, machetes.  Or home-made bombs and other kinds of chemical weapons.

I'm not super worried about terrorism anyway, but I think if terrorism does come to my town, it'll probably be in the form of a vehicle ramming attack or an improvised bomb in a crowded space.  A 3d printed gun is so far down the list of possibilities, both in terms of likelihood and in terms of potential damage, that it seems silly to stress over it.

The internet isn't going away, 3d printers aren't going away, so why worry over this?  I'm wondering if this might be the latest ploy from lawmakers who are trying to find more rationalizations to justify internet censorship laws to the general public.

 -k
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Offline Omni

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Re: Ghost Guns
« Reply #22 on: August 05, 2018, 09:07:05 pm »
But if somebody wants to commit mayhem someplace that isn't screened by metal detectors, then they have way better options than a piece of crap plastic gun.  Real guns, for example.  Or vehicles. Or knives, axes, machetes.  Or home-made bombs and other kinds of chemical weapons.

I'm not super worried about terrorism anyway, but I think if terrorism does come to my town, it'll probably be in the form of a vehicle ramming attack or an improvised bomb in a crowded space.  A 3d printed gun is so far down the list of possibilities, both in terms of likelihood and in terms of potential damage, that it seems silly to stress over it.

The internet isn't going away, 3d printers aren't going away, so why worry over this?  I'm wondering if this might be the latest ploy from lawmakers who are trying to find more rationalizations to justify internet censorship laws to the general public.

 -k

So go do a little research and let us know how many people have been killed (intentionally) by cars driven by terrorists, and how many have been shot by terrorists or criminals. I guess gun nutz will use any excuse to keep their popguns.

Offline kimmy

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Re: Ghost Guns
« Reply #23 on: August 05, 2018, 09:23:00 pm »
So go do a little research and let us know how many people have been killed (intentionally) by cars driven by terrorists, and how many have been shot by terrorists or criminals. I guess gun nutz will use any excuse to keep their popguns.

Of all the shootings performed by terrorists over the years, I am willing to bet that a grand total of zero of them have been committed using 3d printed guns.

I don't need 3d printed guns, as I have the real thing, and other "gun nutz" would tell you the same.   This isn't about gun control for me, this is just a matter of telling you that neither gang members nor terrorists nor would-be mass murderers are going to be out on the street rampaging around with 3d printed guns.


If there was a gun-control angle to this, I might suggest it would be "there's no point trying to ban handguns anymore, because the criminals can just print their own now!"  But I don't think that's actually a good argument, because 3d printed guns are crap and criminals won't be using them.


Again... the internet isn't going away, 3d printers aren't going away...  so what do you really think can be done about this alleged threat to public safety?  Ban some websites?

 -k
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Offline Goddess

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Re: Ghost Guns
« Reply #24 on: August 07, 2018, 11:56:48 am »
Terrorists already have 3d printers.   They're not expensive to obtain and not complicated to operate.  Remember, the "Liberator" 3d printed gun has been available on the internet for 5 years. Terrorists could be making them already, but they aren't. That's because 3d printed guns suck compared to the real thing.  And bullets still set off metal detectors, regardless what kind of gun you plan to fire them from.

 -k

Ummm, just FYI.....we don't call them "terrorists" in Canada.  We call them "mentally ill."
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Offline Omni

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Re: Ghost Guns
« Reply #25 on: August 07, 2018, 12:09:53 pm »
Of all the shootings performed by terrorists over the years, I am willing to bet that a grand total of zero of them have been committed using 3d printed guns.

I don't need 3d printed guns, as I have the real thing, and other "gun nutz" would tell you the same.   This isn't about gun control for me, this is just a matter of telling you that neither gang members nor terrorists nor would-be mass murderers are going to be out on the street rampaging around with 3d printed guns.


If there was a gun-control angle to this, I might suggest it would be "there's no point trying to ban handguns anymore, because the criminals can just print their own now!"  But I don't think that's actually a good argument, because 3d printed guns are crap and criminals won't be using them.


Again... the internet isn't going away, 3d printers aren't going away...  so what do you really think can be done about this alleged threat to public safety?  Ban some websites?

 -k

"Alleged threat"? My goodness even Donald Trump had enough brains to understand the reality of the threat when he tweeted he didn't think it was a very good idea. I have heard the ban has been lifted so, let the carnage begin.