Author Topic: Fran Lebowitz on Race and Racism  (Read 1270 times)

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Offline Michael Hardner

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Fran Lebowitz on Race and Racism
« on: September 25, 2017, 06:38:16 am »
https://www.vanityfair.com/culture/2016/01/fran-lebowitz-on-race-and-racism

Interesting ideas here.  I disagree with her equivocation of multiculturalism with bilingual education but I see the point about bilingual education creating a permanent Spanish-speaking lower class.  Canada, or at least Ontario, doesn't do this.  We have non-credit ESL classes, I think.  But more importantly, we have integration and we socialize fraternity and mixing.  In that way, our system is actually more of a melting pot.

The US has discovered an industry in disunity.  Fomenting us-vs-them dialogue in the media gets attention, and now they're making patriotism itself into a divisive issue.

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Offline SirJohn

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Re: Fran Lebowitz on Race and Racism
« Reply #1 on: September 25, 2017, 10:55:57 am »
https://www.vanityfair.com/culture/2016/01/fran-lebowitz-on-race-and-racism

Interesting ideas here.  I disagree with her equivocation of multiculturalism with bilingual education but I see the point about bilingual education creating a permanent Spanish-speaking lower class.  Canada, or at least Ontario, doesn't do this.  We have non-credit ESL classes, I think.  But more importantly, we have integration and we socialize fraternity and mixing.  In that way, our system is actually more of a melting pot.

I oppose hiring on anything but merit. I agree the American public school system is a disaster. And empathy comes from 'walking a mile in their shoes'. If you can't do that, if you can't imagine how you would feel in someone else's place how can you have empathy?

One of the main problems issue for Black America is crime. It's why most White Americans who are prejudiced ARE prejudiced. The cause of the high crime rate among Black Americans is mainly poverty. Poverty has two parents, which is ironic given one of them is single motherhood. The other is poor education. Together these have produced generations of young people without discipline, and a culture which sneers at education and instead worships toughness, machismo, violence. That's why Black celebrities act like gangstas.

Asians outperform everyone in America, including whites. They do it because Asians are rarely single mothers, and both parents devote considerable time to discipline and education for their young. They emphasize it. They REQUIRE good grades. Talk to any teacher in a Black neighborhood and they'll complain that black fathers are rarely to be seen and Black mothers are rarely to be heard from. Neither is much into helping junior with his homework, or even making sure he comes to school.

An Asian kid who gets straight As will be sought after by other Asian kids. A Black kid in an American inner city who gets straight As will be mocked and bullied.

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The US has discovered an industry in disunity.  Fomenting us-vs-them dialogue in the media gets attention, and now they're making patriotism itself into a divisive issue.

How is that different from Canada?
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline cybercoma

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Re: Fran Lebowitz on Race and Racism
« Reply #2 on: September 26, 2017, 08:24:34 am »
I oppose hiring on anything but merit.
Ah yes, the racist cry of those who oppose fair and equitable hiring practices. Tell us more about how you shred people's resumes when their names aren't anglicized enough and how you don't call people back when you see they're a visible minority because they won't fit into the "department culture."

Merit, my ass.
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Offline SirJohn

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Re: Fran Lebowitz on Race and Racism
« Reply #3 on: September 26, 2017, 11:16:22 am »
Ah yes, the racist cry of those who oppose fair and equitable hiring practices.

Fair and equitable? You don't support fair and equitable hiring practices. You're far too racist for that. Your paternalistic racist beliefs think minorities are inferior and they couldn't possibly ever succeed unless companies are forced to hire them over more skilled, talented and capable white people.

"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline cybercoma

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Re: Fran Lebowitz on Race and Racism
« Reply #4 on: September 26, 2017, 11:26:24 am »
Oh, I know, you and your ilk love to squawk about how bringing attention to inequality is actually CREATING the inequality, rather than exposing it. It's a painfully stupid argument that is the death knell of privileged white ****.

Offline JMT

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Re: Fran Lebowitz on Race and Racism
« Reply #5 on: September 26, 2017, 11:27:37 am »
Fair and equitable? You don't support fair and equitable hiring practices. You're far too racist for that. Your paternalistic racist beliefs think minorities are inferior and they couldn't possibly ever succeed unless companies are forced to hire them over more skilled, talented and capable white people.

To be fair, you did say the things that he repeated back to you.

Offline SirJohn

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Re: Fran Lebowitz on Race and Racism
« Reply #6 on: September 26, 2017, 11:31:55 am »
To be fair, you did say the things that he repeated back to you.

No, I most certainly did not. I did say I, like a lot of others, would tend to call someone with a more 'Canadian' name in fear that the other was a foreigner with different cultural values and poor English who would not fit into our somewhat unique group very well. There was nothing racial about it.
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline SirJohn

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Re: Fran Lebowitz on Race and Racism
« Reply #7 on: September 26, 2017, 11:33:16 am »
Oh, I know, you and your ilk love to squawk about how bringing attention to inequality is actually CREATING the inequality, rather than exposing it. It's a painfully stupid argument that is the death knell of privileged white ****.

Nobody complains about bringing attention to inequality on this side of the political fence since conservatives are all about fairness and merit. We just aren't as paternalistic and gripped by white liberal guilt and shame as people on your side. We're not going to hire someone with Black skin just because they have Black skin.

And please do explain the necessity of our using affirmative action in order to redress historical racism against people whose ancestors, in almost all cases, weren't even in Canada prior to the 1980s.
« Last Edit: September 26, 2017, 11:42:26 am by SirJohn »
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline Omni

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Re: Fran Lebowitz on Race and Racism
« Reply #8 on: September 26, 2017, 11:49:49 am »
Nobody complains about bringing attention to inequality on this side of the political fence since conservatives are all about fairness and merit. We just aren't as paternalistic and gripped by white liberal guilt and shame as people on your side. We're not going to hire someone with Black skin just because they have Black skin.

And please do explain the necessity of our using affirmative action in order to redress historical racism against people whose ancestors, in almost all cases, weren't even in Canada prior to the 1980s.

Yes since there is plenty of racist currently under way to keep affirmative action etal busy. We see it right here in these pages.

Offline JMT

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Re: Fran Lebowitz on Race and Racism
« Reply #9 on: September 26, 2017, 12:06:56 pm »
No, I most certainly did not. I did say I, like a lot of others, would tend to call someone with a more 'Canadian' name in fear that the other was a foreigner with different cultural values and poor English who would not fit into our somewhat unique group very well. There was nothing racial about it.

See, I wouldn't feel that way.

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Re: Fran Lebowitz on Race and Racism
« Reply #10 on: September 26, 2017, 12:15:45 pm »
No, I most certainly did not. I did say I, like a lot of others, would tend to call someone with a more 'Canadian' name in fear that the other was a foreigner with different cultural values and poor English who would not fit into our somewhat unique group very well. There was nothing racial about it.

Whatever your motivation, the end result is that you will toss resume because a name is not "White Canadian" enough for you.   Doesn't really matter if you personally don't feel racist, your actions are racist-based, not merit-based.
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Offline cybercoma

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Re: Fran Lebowitz on Race and Racism
« Reply #11 on: September 26, 2017, 12:30:15 pm »
Whatever your motivation, the end result is that you will toss resume because a name is not "White Canadian" enough for you.   Doesn't really matter if you personally don't feel racist, your actions are racist-based, not merit-based.
Not just SirJohn though. When many, many people do the same thing, the end result is a lack of opportunity for people without white enough sounding names.

Offline SirJohn

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Re: Fran Lebowitz on Race and Racism
« Reply #12 on: September 26, 2017, 02:32:00 pm »
See, I wouldn't feel that way.

Our group worked very well together. We had a lot of fun, both in the office and outside of it. Some of those people remain among my very best friends. But there were always those who didn't fit in, and were a drag on things, like the Jehovah's witness, and the weird French girl who was always off sick. I tried to find someone who would fit in. I don't apologize for that.
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline SirJohn

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Re: Fran Lebowitz on Race and Racism
« Reply #13 on: September 26, 2017, 02:34:26 pm »
Whatever your motivation, the end result is that you will toss resume because a name is not "White Canadian" enough for you.   Doesn't really matter if you personally don't feel racist, your actions are racist-based, not merit-based.

Again, like so  many others who like to fling that word around you don't even know what it means. My preference was for Canadian born and raised, not 'white'. And since communication skills were almost more important than anything else, that made Canadian born people more likely to be those who exceled.
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline SirJohn

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Re: Fran Lebowitz on Race and Racism
« Reply #14 on: September 26, 2017, 02:34:51 pm »
Not just SirJohn though. When many, many people do the same thing, the end result is a lack of opportunity for people without white enough sounding names.

Well then, let them change their names.

The explanation lies in ideas as simple as language and cultural differences, and as complex as the root of American culture. We all know names have been Anglicized in America (even the word "Anglicized" has been Americanized!). As any kindergartener learns, we live in a world where people ask our name then write it down without asking us how to spell or pronounce that name. Once in America, immigrants were typically asked their name and entered into official records by those who had "made it" in America and thus were already English-speaking (i.e., teachers, landlords, employers, judges etc.). The fact that those with the power to create official records were English-speaking explains much about small changes, over time, in the spelling of certain names.
Many immigrants welcomed this change. Anyone from Eastern Europe, with a name long on consonants and short on vowels, learned that his name often got in the way of a job interview or became the subject of ridicule at his child's school. Any change that might smooth their way to the American dream was seen as a step in the right direction.


https://www.uscis.gov/history-and-genealogy/genealogy/genealogy-notebook/immigrant-name-changes
« Last Edit: September 26, 2017, 02:40:02 pm by SirJohn »
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum