Author Topic: Democratic Socialists  (Read 581 times)

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Offline SirJohn

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Re: Democratic Socialists
« Reply #60 on: August 29, 2018, 06:19:44 pm »
ICE needs to go anyway. They screwed up when they started ripping babies from their mothers arms.

What a brainless comment. All they did was enforce the law as they were ordered to do by the Attorney General. I guess in your world public servants should do whatever the hell they want, regardless of what their bosses say. But then, never having held a job, you probably don't understand that this gets you fired.


« Last Edit: August 30, 2018, 12:09:14 am by JMT »
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline Gorgeous Graham

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Re: Democratic Socialists
« Reply #61 on: August 29, 2018, 06:21:50 pm »
Companies only ever have as many expenses as absolutely necessary, including labour. They canít function with less people. If they could, they would do it and make more profit. What this does is force these companies to pay people an appropriate wage that doesnít rely on government subsidies to pad their profits.

If paid local labour is cheaper and more efficient than the alternative (ie: offshoring labour or automation) they will hire people, if the cost of local workers rises then companies will choose any other possible alternative that is better for their bottom line.

ie: If having cashiers is cheaper and more efficient than automated checkout then they will keep hiring cashiers.  If you raise the hourly wage plus increase benefits etc  then at some point depending on the increase, more automated checkouts would likely replace some cashiers.  Some jobs can't be replaced, like a lot of services, but the lower the skill needed to do a job often the easier it is replace the worker.

Go raise costs of company call center employees and watch even more of those jobs ship overseas.  Beware unintended consequences of what seems like good actions.
"The economy has been relatively strong but Trudeau has chosen to run deficits year after year & has said will continue to do so well into the future.  This means we'll be in a worse & more vulnerable financial position when a recession hits when we HAVE to run deficits again." - Me, Oct. 3, 2019

Offline Gorgeous Graham

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Re: Democratic Socialists
« Reply #62 on: August 29, 2018, 06:24:15 pm »
Wait - so this will force them to pay food stamp recipients more ?  Why not just increase the minimum wage ?  This seems like an indirect approach.

Better yet - across the board tax increases.

What if you don't make the minimum wage but you still don't get benefits?

I see what you're saying with the indirect approach though.  Just straight taxing them seems like a better idea, it won't affect the cost of hiring or replacing workers.
"The economy has been relatively strong but Trudeau has chosen to run deficits year after year & has said will continue to do so well into the future.  This means we'll be in a worse & more vulnerable financial position when a recession hits when we HAVE to run deficits again." - Me, Oct. 3, 2019

Offline Gorgeous Graham

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Re: Democratic Socialists
« Reply #63 on: August 29, 2018, 06:27:00 pm »
Because Republicans and so-called Libertarians won't vote for increased minimum wages nor tax increases.

Why do any of us even care about US domestic policies of how much workers in the US make?  They all have a vote, that's their problem how they use it.  Seems more useful to worry about Canadian wages etc., at least we have some influence on that, plus it actually affects us.
"The economy has been relatively strong but Trudeau has chosen to run deficits year after year & has said will continue to do so well into the future.  This means we'll be in a worse & more vulnerable financial position when a recession hits when we HAVE to run deficits again." - Me, Oct. 3, 2019

Offline TimG

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Re: Democratic Socialists
« Reply #64 on: August 29, 2018, 11:17:09 pm »
How did that work in Ontario when they raised the minimum wage ?  Is my Tim Horton's coffee made in Indonesia now ?
I am sure they already get their beans from places with low labour costs. If those workers were not paid poorly the cost of a coffee would be much much higher. It is a good illustration of how economy depends on being able to source goods from low wage areas and this has the effect of increasing the spending power of low wage workers here much more than any wage increase would.  OTOH, wage increases without productivity improvements will lead to fewer jobs and even more reliance on technology and imported goods/services.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2018, 11:18:42 pm by TimG »

Offline Omni

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Re: Democratic Socialists
« Reply #65 on: August 29, 2018, 11:31:25 pm »
I am sure they already get their beans from places with low labour costs. If those workers were not paid poorly the cost of a coffee would be much much higher. It is a good illustration of how economy depends on being able to source goods from low wage areas and this has the effect of increasing the spending power of low wage workers here much more than any wage increase would.  OTOH, wage increases without productivity improvements will lead to fewer jobs and even more reliance on technology and imported goods/services.

Except that wage increases do improve productivity because extra money causes extra consumption. Simple. It's called "wage push inflation", and it has benefited us all in this part of the world.
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Offline MH

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Re: Democratic Socialists
« Reply #66 on: August 30, 2018, 07:01:11 am »
1. If those workers were not paid poorly the cost of a coffee would be much much higher. It is a good illustration of how economy depends on being able to source goods from low wage areas and

2. this has the effect of increasing the spending power of low wage workers here much more than any wage increase would.  OTOH, wage increases without productivity improvements will lead to fewer jobs and even more reliance on technology and imported goods/services.

1. 'low labour costs' does not mean 'paid poorly'.  They have to pay market in those countries, and as trade increases those wages will approach parity with ours also - all things being equal. 

2. It also reduces the wages of people who are displaced, but again - all things being equal they are supposed to find jobs in new areas.

You didn't talk about Ontario.

Offline cybercoma

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Re: Democratic Socialists
« Reply #67 on: August 31, 2018, 09:22:33 am »
Yeah, so... they are going to vote for this ?  Why ?
Because it reduces government expenditures.

Offline cybercoma

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Re: Democratic Socialists
« Reply #68 on: August 31, 2018, 09:24:36 am »
The only people who thinks social programs are "corporate welfare" are people with no understanding of economics. Social programs are funded whether people have jobs or not. If companies simply close up shop and fire everyone those programs will cost even more. Suggesting they are "subsides" is irrational nonsense.
When people with fulltime jobs need to access social welfare programs, such as food stamps, then it absolutely is corporate welfare. A fulltime job ought to be enough to support oneself and even a family for that matter. When companies don't pay their employees enough to support themselves, but the government steps in and makes up the difference, that is absolutely corporate welfare. It's supporting the company's ability to **** over its employees by not paying them enough to provide for themselves. It's literally a direct subsidy to the wages paid by the company.
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Offline cybercoma

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Re: Democratic Socialists
« Reply #69 on: August 31, 2018, 09:27:09 am »
The more expensive you make labour, the more affordable the alternatives become.
The alternative is higher taxes to support that labour. You don't get it both ways. Either the companies pay employees a reasonable wage so they can support themselves, or the government steps in to support them, resulting in higher taxes.

Offline cybercoma

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Re: Democratic Socialists
« Reply #70 on: August 31, 2018, 09:28:24 am »
If paid local labour is cheaper and more efficient than the alternative (ie: offshoring labour or automation) they will hire people, if the cost of local workers rises then companies will choose any other possible alternative that is better for their bottom line.
You think Walmart is going to close all of its stores because it can't **** over cashiers anymore?

Offline cybercoma

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Re: Democratic Socialists
« Reply #71 on: August 31, 2018, 09:29:07 am »
Why do any of us even care about US domestic policies of how much workers in the US make?  They all have a vote, that's their problem how they use it.  Seems more useful to worry about Canadian wages etc., at least we have some influence on that, plus it actually affects us.
Because we were talking about Bernie Sanders.

Offline SirJohn

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Re: Democratic Socialists
« Reply #72 on: August 31, 2018, 12:49:00 pm »
The alternative is higher taxes to support that labour. You don't get it both ways. Either the companies pay employees a reasonable wage so they can support themselves, or the government steps in to support them, resulting in higher taxes.

You realize the result of higher taxes is lower economic performance and thus more unemployed, right?
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline cybercoma

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Re: Democratic Socialists
« Reply #73 on: August 31, 2018, 01:26:11 pm »
You realize the result of higher taxes is lower economic performance and thus more unemployed, right?
So it's either lower economic performance and more unemployed or lower economic performance and more unemployed, according to you and Tim. Take your pick.