Author Topic: Democrat debates  (Read 367 times)

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Offline segnosaur

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Re: Democrat debates
« Reply #30 on: September 23, 2019, 11:25:50 am »
Warren has that silly idea of a "wealth tax".
Why exactly do you consider it 'silly'?

A significant number of wealthy people pay little or no tax because they don't have 'income' in the regular sense. The gini coefficient (which measures wealth inequality) in the U.S. has been increasing steadily. The U.S. has a huge deficit and needs to upgrade certain infrastructure.

If not a 'wealth tax', what do you suggest the U.S. do to handle its fiscal problems?

Offline SuperColinBlow

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Re: Democrat debates
« Reply #31 on: September 25, 2019, 08:04:38 am »
I hate to sound like a Libertarian or a Republican but that's just taking money out of somebody's bank account rather than their income. The Libertarians are known for saying "All taxation is theft!" Personally, I would rather not turn their boo-hoo cries into reality. I have a feeling the Supreme Court would strike it down and a hypothetical Pres. Warren will say "oh, well I tried guys!" (probably knowing all along that that would happen anyway.)

Um, what is this "significant number" and how much aren't they paying? If you earn interest in the United States, it's taxable, as is capital gains. Unless these wealthy people you refer to are saving their millions under a huge mattress they're paying interest/capital gains taxes to Uncle Sam.

Now, with Warren's "wealth tax" these rich people (and probably other people a lot poorer than them, as well) won't bother to put all their savings in banks. That's how it works: People get loans from the bank for a house, car, etc., because a bunch of depositors have put their money in that bank (at interest) for the bank to lend out (at slightly more interest). Institute a wealth tax and it will be harder for banks to find the deposits they need to thrive and, in consequence, there will be less money to lend out. Bill Gates and Warren Buffet will just get really big Scrooge McDuckian vaults in their basements, or, worse, funnel it to banks in the Cayman Islands or other tax havens. Our wealth inequality will not be affected one iota, and you'll mostly **** off the middle class.

It would at the least cause a very serious recession, as banks will scramble to get deposits. And scramble they will, because who the hell anywhere in the world wants to open a bank account in a country that will just raid it? Gotta think of the end result and consequences, rather than catering to a bunch of people (millennials mostly) who don't understand how banks work. I don't think Bernie Sanders was stupid enough to propose that one.
« Last Edit: September 25, 2019, 08:08:06 am by SuperColinBlow »
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Offline segnosaur

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Re: Democrat debates
« Reply #32 on: September 25, 2019, 01:20:48 pm »
I hate to sound like a Libertarian or a Republican but that's just taking money out of somebody's bank account rather than their income....
So, do you propose increasing the income tax rate rather than imposing a wealth tax?
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If you earn interest in the United States, it's taxable, as is capital gains.
Yes, interest is payable, but interest rates are rather low. Its not a vehicle that major investors would necessarily worry about.

Capital gains are also payable, but if I understand correctly, they are only counted at the time the asset is actually sold. So, if you bought something that was cheap and its now worth millions, you can actually sit on your investment indefinitely. You could be a multi-billionaire because you bought a few picassos at a yard sale, and never pay any tax on their increased value because you never sell them.
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Now, with Warren's "wealth tax" these rich people (and probably other people a lot poorer than them, as well) won't bother to put all their savings in banks.
I doubt many wealthy people put their money in banks now. I suspect they mostly invest it, either in stocks, or real estate, or some other item that will either increase in value or will provide income. (And indeed, that is the type of things that most wealth taxes target... not necessarily money stuck in a bank somewhere.)

Sticking it in a bank account just won't provide that type of return.
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That's how it works: People get loans from the bank for a house, car, etc., because a bunch of depositors have put their money in that bank (at interest) for the bank to lend out (at slightly more interest). Institute a wealth tax and it will be harder for banks to find the deposits they need to thrive and, in consequence, there will be less money to lend out.
First of all, you're not talking about taking all wealth, only a small fraction of it and only from certain people. I doubt a wealth tax will cause banks to become insolvent because a tiny fraction of wealthy people have slightly less money, which they probably weren't storing in the banks anyways.

Secondly, keep in mind that if the wealthy loses a few million to a wealth tax, that money doesn't just disappear... it would get recirculated in the economy. Some might go to infrastructure that expands the overall economy. Some might result in higher wages for middle class workers that then get deposited in banks (to be lent out again).
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Bill Gates and Warren Buffet will just get really big Scrooge McDuckian vaults in their basements, or, worse, funnel it to banks in the Cayman Islands or other tax havens. Our wealth inequality will not be affected one iota, and you'll mostly **** off the middle class.
Strangely enough, both Gates and Buffet have called for increased taxes on the wealthy.

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/02/25/warren-buffett-and-bill-gates-the-rich-should-pay-higher-taxes.html

"The wealthy are definitely undertaxed relative to the general population" - Warren Buffet

"I’ve paid more taxes, over $10 billion, than anyone else, but the government should require people in my position to pay significantly higher taxes." - Bill Gates

Now, as far as I know, neither has called specifically for a "wealth tax", but other wealthy people have:

From: https://finance.yahoo.com/news/richest-could-lose-hundreds-billions-080000068.html
Billionaire investor George Soros, heiress Abigail Disney and 17 other wealthy individuals published an open letter in June in support of Warren’s wealth tax and said lawmakers have a moral responsibility to levy higher taxes on the rich.

Hmmm... Soros studied economics at university and became wealthy through financial dealings. Do you think he has an idea of what he's talking about?

As for the chance that they may put it in a 'scrooge-like vault' or funnel it to offshore accounts: Again, we're not simply talking about taxing bank accounts. We're talking about a wealth tax, that includes investments like real estate, stocks, etc. Kind of hard to ship those to some offshore bank.

I could also point out that even if it were possible to send your assets off shore to protect them from taxes, it might be a very dumb thing to do. Those offshore accounts tend not to pay much in the way of interest. So, any wealthy person thinking "I'll just send my money to the Caymen islands to avoid the wealth tax" may save on taxes but will lose even more because their investments won't grow as much as if they left it in North America.
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It would at the least cause a very serious recession, as banks will scramble to get deposits. And scramble they will, because who the hell anywhere in the world wants to open a bank account in a country that will just raid it? Gotta think of the end result and consequences, rather than catering to a bunch of people (millennials mostly) who don't understand how banks work. I don't think Bernie Sanders was stupid enough to propose that one.
Well, lets see... Netherlands, Norway and Switzerland all have wealth taxes, and none of those countries is in recession.

Now, some countries have dropped their wealth taxes, but it wasn't because "OMG! Its causing a recession!", but more because of difficulties in enforcing the tax.

And what makes you think people proposing a "wealth tax" don't know how banks work?

Offline SuperColinBlow

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Re: Democrat debates
« Reply #33 on: September 25, 2019, 04:39:40 pm »
How do you quote something line by line? I am having trouble isolating a particular block of text I want to quote rather than the whole thing.
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Offline ?Impact

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Re: Democrat debates
« Reply #34 on: September 25, 2019, 04:43:51 pm »
isolating a particular block of text

I just quote the whole thing, and then edit out the rest.

rather than the whole thing.

If I want another block then I go back and "insert quote" and again edit out what I don't want.

Offline SuperColinBlow

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Re: Democrat debates
« Reply #35 on: September 25, 2019, 04:46:08 pm »
Ugh. OK. Let me just cut and paste in italics or something. It's time for dinner, though. I will commence my rebuttal after having a couple of hamburgers in me first.
« Last Edit: September 25, 2019, 05:01:28 pm by SuperColinBlow »
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Offline kimmy

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Online wilber

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Re: Democrat debates
« Reply #37 on: December 03, 2019, 09:38:59 pm »
I'm little surprised she quit before the first primary but I haven't been following that close. Unless you are a billionaire, money is a huge disincentive to running in the US.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2019, 09:58:26 pm by wilber »
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Offline Poonlight Graham

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Re: Democrat debates
« Reply #38 on: December 03, 2019, 10:02:28 pm »
She needs to learn how to not talk like a prosecutor every minute of every second.  Otherwise i like her, but the schtick gets old.
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Offline Omni

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Re: Democrat debates
« Reply #39 on: December 03, 2019, 10:12:10 pm »
I'm little surprised she quit before the first primary but I haven't been following that close. Unless you are a billionaire, money is a huge disincentive to running in the US.

And just look where electing at least a self described billionaire got them now! Watching Macron outsmart Donny was funny.

Offline segnosaur

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Re: Democrat debates
« Reply #40 on: December 04, 2019, 10:27:44 am »
Kamala Harris, she done
https://www.politico.com/news/2019/12/03/spectacular-collapse-kamala-harris-2020-074982
There may have been some hints before hand that her campaign was in trouble...

From: https://www.wthr.com/article/kamala-harris-aide-leaves-bloomberg-campaign-after-scathing-resignation-letter
Kamala Harris' campaign aide Kelly Mehlenbacher tore into the campaign she served as States Operations Director, saying, "this is my third presidential campaign and I have never seen an organization treat its staff so poorly."...She goes on to detail a work environment with low morale that lacked planning or a vision for how to win... Democratic House Representative Marcia Fudge of Ohio, who endorsed Harris, has been critical of some of Harris' top aides...

Mehlenbacher's resignation came a day or 2 before Harris dropped out of the race.