Author Topic: Cultural Marxism  (Read 2196 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline cybercoma

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 2956
Re: Cultural Marxism
« Reply #120 on: June 23, 2018, 04:44:40 am »
Argus,
just because understand Marxism, that doesn’t make me a Marxist. Read a book. Marx was the single most influential theorist on the transition to modernity. His theory is about the process of history. He saved Western philosophy from the German tradition of seeing history as a process of merely changing ideas and values, which overlooked the role of material life. He showed that ideas change because material relations change and not vice versa. You don’t understand Marxism because your thoughts are only made up of McCarthy Era propaganda so you’ve never bothered to actually read Marx yourself.

CG,
you spilled a lot of ink to essentially reiterate Peterson’s mistakes. Identity politics are not Marxism, period. The ONLY identity Marxists recognize is economic class in terms of the people’s relationship to the means of production. The theoretical source of identity politics is actually the Nietaschean master-slave dialectic that argues the master has incomplete knowledge of the world, while the slave is intimately familiar with his own point of view as well as that of the master. This idea of “special” knowledge can be seen in the work of people like W.E.B. DuBois when he talks about race. This is not anything at all like Marxism even in the remotest sense. Describing oppression is not sufficient to be classified as Marxism. This was all covered in the video that you clearly still haven’t watched.
Informative Informative x 2 View List

Offline cybercoma

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 2956
Re: Cultural Marxism
« Reply #121 on: June 23, 2018, 04:50:26 am »
And yet some of the ideas were good enough for the West to steal.  There are definitely aspects of it that are more appealing than pure capitalism.
You don’t “steal” parts of Marxism. He described a process of historical change and the conflict between the material interests of the economic classes. If you mean that advanced capitalism and the welfare state are Marxist, that’s incorrect. Advanced capitalism interrupts the process Marx described. He would likely decry it for prolonging exploitation while doing nothing to move towards a classless society. This is exactly why I am not a Marxist, ie, because I believe in social programs and the welfare state. Argus doesn’t understand these positions or theories well enough to see the distinction. Given how blunt his thinking is on immigration, showing a constant  need to operate in binaries, I don’t think he can understand the differences.
Informative Informative x 1 View List

Offline Michael Hardner

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12532
Re: Cultural Marxism
« Reply #122 on: June 23, 2018, 05:28:18 am »
You don’t “steal” parts of Marxism. He described a process of historical change and the conflict between the material interests of the economic classes. If you mean that advanced capitalism and the welfare state are Marxist, that’s incorrect.

Ok, I stand corrected.  I should have said they incorporated parts of socialism to become the mixed system we have today, ie. not pure capitalism.

Quote
Advanced capitalism interrupts the process Marx described. He would likely decry it for prolonging exploitation while doing nothing to move towards a classless society. This is exactly why I am not a Marxist, ie, because I believe in social programs and the welfare state.

Ok, so as I am coming to understand this is a form of liberalism.

Quote
Argus doesn’t understand these positions or theories well enough to see the distinction. Given how blunt his thinking is on immigration, showing a constant  need to operate in binaries, I don’t think he can understand the differences.

I don't think that's a problem as much as having the need to moralize when we talk about individual systems. 

Offline cybercoma

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 2956
Re: Cultural Marxism
« Reply #123 on: June 23, 2018, 06:31:26 am »
Ok, I stand corrected.  I should have said they incorporated parts of socialism to become the mixed system we have today, ie. not pure capitalism.

Ok, so as I am coming to understand this is a form of liberalism.

I don't think that's a problem as much as having the need to moralize when we talk about individual systems.
Liberalism is based on liberty; when it comes to the welfare state when people refer to liberalism they’re referring to the idea that the free-market economy is the best mechanism for social welfare. Liberalism conceptually is the system advocated by Reagan and Thatcher, characterized by de-regulation and de-taxation. The liberalist ideal is a laissez-faire self-regulating economy. Libertarianism arose as a term because US politics is confused about the concepts of conservatism and liberalism, especially today when they conflate liberalism with socialism. A liberalist system of social welfare  typically involves means-based testing and limited benefits. However, our welfare system isn’t strictly liberal. There are also conservative elements to it, which are defined by traditional values, e.g., family, church, and charity providing support. A socialist welfare system would decommidify labour. People would not be dependent on jobs for survival whatsoever. Guaranteed minimum income is an example of this. It directly addresses the power imbalance between labour and ownership. That imbalance exists because the vast majority of people require wage labour for survival. Socialist welfare systems would give people the capacity to freely move between jobs without the threat to their survival that commodified labour entails. Our current system is a mix of these three types of welfare states, but above all others liberalist.

If you’re really interested in the forms of welfare capitalism, check out Esping-Andersen’s Three Worlds
Of Welfare Capitalism: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Three_Worlds_of_Welfare_Capitalism
Informative Informative x 1 View List

Offline SirJohn

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5801
Re: Cultural Marxism
« Reply #124 on: June 23, 2018, 11:35:43 am »
And yet some of the ideas were good enough for the West to steal.  There are definitely aspects of it that are more appealing than pure capitalism.

Which ideas? Marxism was just one type of Socialism, after all.
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline SirJohn

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5801
Re: Cultural Marxism
« Reply #125 on: June 23, 2018, 11:39:31 am »
Argus,
just because understand Marxism, that doesn’t make me a Marxist. Read a book. Marx was the single most influential theorist on the transition to modernity. His theory is about the process of history. He saved Western philosophy from the German tradition of seeing history as a process of merely changing ideas and values, which overlooked the role of material life. He showed that ideas change because material relations change and not vice versa. You don’t understand Marxism because your thoughts are only made up of McCarthy Era propaganda so you’ve never bothered to actually read Marx yourself.

Uhm, no. I have nothing but contempt for Mccarthy. I also have contempt for people who embrace ideas which have repeatedly proven themselves unworkable. That goes for 'the war on drugs' as well as Marxism, as well as the US clinging to their idiotic private health care system.

Marxism has not worked anywhere. Political types heavily influenced by Marx have failed everywhere. Marx ignored humanity and its motivations in his economic theories, which believed Socialism was simply a waypoint to Communism, an even more unworkable system.

And if you're not an outright Marxist you clearly deeply respect it and your beliefs are heavily influenced by it.
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline Michael Hardner

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12532
Re: Cultural Marxism
« Reply #126 on: June 23, 2018, 12:02:44 pm »
Which ideas? Marxism was just one type of Socialism, after all.

The idea of the state providing access to some benefits without direct cost to the user, for example.  Employment insurance, healthcare.

Offline SirJohn

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5801
Re: Cultural Marxism
« Reply #127 on: June 23, 2018, 12:13:48 pm »
The idea of the state providing access to some benefits without direct cost to the user, for example.  Employment insurance, healthcare.

Not sure how much of that can be attributed to Marxism. Public health care wasn't inspired by socialism so much as by businessmen in the UK and Germany whose employees now took considerable time and effort to train, and who were tried of them dying through the various communicable diseases which swept through society. Actual medical care, aside from disease treatment, was only available to workers, at first, because those were who businessmen cared about. Similarly, free public education is needed by business to provide workers educated enough to do modern work.

Welfare is probably the most socialized program, I would guess. At least in Canada.
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline Michael Hardner

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12532
Re: Cultural Marxism
« Reply #128 on: June 23, 2018, 12:26:48 pm »
Not sure how much of that can be attributed to Marxism.

I remember reading about a book by Conrad Black about FDR (I think) wherein it was submitted that the west was directly threatened by the prospect of the working classes adopting Bolshevism.

Quote
Public health care wasn't inspired by socialism so much as by businessmen in the UK and Germany whose employees now took considerable time and effort to train, and who were tried of them dying through the various communicable diseases which swept through society. Actual medical care, aside from disease treatment, was only available to workers, at first, because those were who businessmen cared about. Similarly, free public education is needed by business to provide workers educated enough to do modern work.

In any case, the 'capitalist' system iterated and the 'communist' system didn't.  It moved towards the 'left'. 
 

Offline Queefer Sutherland

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10257
Re: Cultural Marxism
« Reply #129 on: June 25, 2018, 03:50:15 pm »
Identity politics are not Marxism, period. The ONLY identity Marxists recognize is economic class in terms of the people’s relationship to the means of production.

I'm not saying identity politics IS marxism, but I'm saying marxism is a form of identity politics, as you just admitted, as marxists identify themselves in terms of class as bourgeoisie vs proletariat & advocate class consciousness, which has similarities to today of being "woke" in regards to racial and gender dialectics (being race-conscious, or gender-conscious) etc.  These are all different analytical lenses in which to view different oppression-oppressor dialectics, which are especially of concern within leftwing politics, and as university classrooms/academics/students tend to often sit on the left more often than not, we see marxist analysis in course readings etc. within & alongside gender studies and ethnic studies classes etc.  It's all part of the same ideology.

Quote
The theoretical source of identity politics is actually the Nietaschean master-slave dialectic that argues the master has incomplete knowledge of the world, while the slave is intimately familiar with his own point of view as well as that of the master. This idea of “special” knowledge can be seen in the work of people like W.E.B. DuBois when he talks about race. This is not anything at all like Marxism even in the remotest sense.

The Marxist dialetic fits perfectly within Nietzche's master-slave dialectic.  The bourgeoisie is the master, the proletariat is the slave.  Marxists even use the term "wage slavery".  I doubt Nietzsche first theorized identity politics, there's lots of it in the Bible and the Christian philosophers who came after it for instance.

As I said, I think "cultural marxism" is a dumb term to use, since it confuses different phenomena and causes these kinds of disagreements, & it's also associated with a nutty conspiracy theory .
"Nipples is one of the great minds of our time!" - Bubbermiley

Offline Michael Hardner

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12532
Re: Cultural Marxism
« Reply #130 on: November 18, 2018, 02:46:27 pm »
Sure, this thread.  Why not ?

https://nowtoronto.com/culture/stage/buddies-cancels-reading-sky-gilbert/?fbclid=IwAR3JwYaIpWG7-ErADE9ede25I8P6hEE9ksImXGCBqYxINz1KZUz9AcR3dkg

Quote
“White cis gay men are now considered the most privileged people in the community, which must have been shocking and uncomfortable to some. But it matters very much what you do with that shock and discomfort,”

We can't deny that culture clashes are happening and privilege is being assigned to others in unexpected ways.  But it's a dialogue, or should be one.

Offline kimmy

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 5033
  • Location: Kim City BC
Re: Cultural Marxism
« Reply #131 on: November 18, 2018, 10:24:13 pm »
Well, yeah, I was a little taken aback when I discovered that as a cis white lesbian I'm actually a privileged oppressor.



I'm not a part of the "community" or the "movement", and I have no idea what the **** they're even talking about:

Quote
“In these increasingly polarized times, how can we, as an intergenerational queer community ‘cherish all that makes us different and conquer all that makes us afraid?’”

To me it seems like they've realized that most of the real world has stopped listening to them so they've turned on the few remaining people who do still care what they're saying, which is their own allies within the movement. That's dysfunctional. I was never part of that community, and I sure wouldn't join it now. Who'd sign up for that? 

I think there's a parallel between this and the TERFs discussion in the other thread.  Both seem to have an element of generational clash.

To me, it seems like a small group of fanatics waging war on their own community, to gain control of what's an increasingly small and irrelevant movement. Driving away their allies just makes sure it becomes smaller and even less relevant.


 -k
Paris - London - New York - Kim City
Agree Agree x 1 View List

Offline kimmy

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 5033
  • Location: Kim City BC
Re: Cultural Marxism
« Reply #132 on: November 18, 2018, 10:30:36 pm »
The blog post that got Sky Gilbert booted from the theatre:

Quote
I’m Afraid of ‘Woke People’

for Vivek Shraya, upon reading her book -- I'm Afraid of Men

I’m afraid of ‘Woke People’ because they divide humanity into either ‘us’ or ‘them.’
I’m afraid of “Woke People’ because they taught me to fear being gay. It was something that I worked very hard to be proud of, and now — once again — I am ashamed.
When I go to a theatre event or a sexuality conference, I am careful not to dress in a sexual way, because I know that for many ‘Woke People’ it fits an evil gay stereotype.
When I go online I brace myself for the postings about how politically insensitive, hyper-sexual and super-rich gay men are.
I’m afraid of ‘Woke People because they can’t see that I’m gay, but only that I’m a man.
When I send ‘Woke People’ emails, I have to go out of my way not to appear too gay, too sexual, or too irreverent. I do not want to offend them.
I’m afraid of ‘Woke People’ because if I mistakenly use the wrong pronoun to describe them, they may become furious and never forgive me.
I’m afraid of ‘Woke People’ because, for them, good intentions are not enough.
When I dress in drag, I fear I will be ‘dressed down’ by a “Woke Person,’ screamed at for enjoying appropriated music, for making fun of trans people, and for my camp sense of humour.
I’m afraid of ‘Woke People’ because when I appeal to them for generosity and kindness they see it as trying to make them weak.
I’m afraid of ‘Woke People’ because I am worried they will measure my lack of privilege against theirs, and find it wanting.
I’m afraid of ‘Woke People’ because they have said to me ‘your time is up.’
When I see a group of ‘Woke People’ laughing and tittering in a corner, I can’t help but imagine they are laughing about me.
I’m afraid of ‘Woke People’ because my intersectionality does not have enough intersections.
I’m afraid of ‘Woke People’ because our very human imaginations may not be able to survive the rigorous scrutiny of social justice.
I’m afraid of ‘Woke People’ because I’m afraid they will kill art.
You see I believe (gulp!) that we should try and love everyone, even (gulp!) the people who hate us.
I’m afraid of ‘Woke People,’ because — I’m sorry.
Because I’m sorry I exist.

I think their reaction kind of makes his point.


 -k
{my intersectionality doesn't have enough intersections either.}
Paris - London - New York - Kim City
Agree Agree x 2 View List

Offline cybercoma

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 2956
Re: Cultural Marxism
« Reply #133 on: November 19, 2018, 04:34:25 pm »
Sure, this thread.  Why not ?

https://nowtoronto.com/culture/stage/buddies-cancels-reading-sky-gilbert/?fbclid=IwAR3JwYaIpWG7-ErADE9ede25I8P6hEE9ksImXGCBqYxINz1KZUz9AcR3dkg

We can't deny that culture clashes are happening and privilege is being assigned to others in unexpected ways.  But it's a dialogue, or should be one.
privilege isn’t assigned

Offline Michael Hardner

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12532
Re: Cultural Marxism
« Reply #134 on: November 19, 2018, 04:52:01 pm »
Why is my wording a problem here?

Someone's is attributing privilege to Gilbert.  Is this incorrect?