Author Topic: Another Mass School Shooting in the US  (Read 1197 times)

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Offline bcsapper

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Re: Another Mass School Shooting in the US
« Reply #30 on: February 16, 2018, 06:30:48 pm »
The continuing statements by Republicans that guns are not the problem ignores the reality that at the very, very least, they heavily aggravate the problem. That guy in Edmonton who ran down the cop on his way to running down other people wanted his gun. Why? There are millions of guns in Canada. But he couldn't get one, so he tried to get one off a cop. He could have killed a lot more people with a gun. The guy in Ottawa who ran into the parliament buildings didn't manage to kill anyone there. One of the reasons is he had a rifle which had to be cocked after each shot, and had a small magazine. If he'd had an AR-15 with a high capacity magazine there would have been more deaths. But he couldn't get one of those. They guy who ran down people in New York city last month couldn't get his hands on anything more lethal (aside from the truck) than a pellet gun. If he'd had an AR-15 he'd have been able to kill a lot more people.  But he couldn't get one. New York and New Jersey have far stricter gun laws than Florida.
The terrorists in London are the same. All they had were knives. Imagine the damage they could have done with Uzis or AR15s.

Gun laws aren't going to stop all such killings, but they do make it harder to ring up a high kill rate, especially if you're impatient and crazy and wary of going through a government check to get a permit.

And I am a gun owner,  btw. Nor am I a flaming liberal.

I have a gun too, and I like it, but I am all in favour of everyone who wants one to have to go through at least what I had to go through in order to get one.
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Offline wilber

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Re: Another Mass School Shooting in the US
« Reply #31 on: February 16, 2018, 10:08:22 pm »
The continuing statements by Republicans that guns are not the problem ignores the reality that at the very, very least, they heavily aggravate the problem. That guy in Edmonton who ran down the cop on his way to running down other people wanted his gun. Why? There are millions of guns in Canada. But he couldn't get one, so he tried to get one off a cop. He could have killed a lot more people with a gun. The guy in Ottawa who ran into the parliament buildings didn't manage to kill anyone there. One of the reasons is he had a rifle which had to be cocked after each shot, and had a small magazine. If he'd had an AR-15 with a high capacity magazine there would have been more deaths. But he couldn't get one of those. They guy who ran down people in New York city last month couldn't get his hands on anything more lethal (aside from the truck) than a pellet gun. If he'd had an AR-15 he'd have been able to kill a lot more people.  But he couldn't get one. New York and New Jersey have far stricter gun laws than Florida.
The terrorists in London are the same. All they had were knives. Imagine the damage they could have done with Uzis or AR15s.

Gun laws aren't going to stop all such killings, but they do make it harder to ring up a high kill rate, especially if you're impatient and crazy and wary of going through a government check to get a permit.

And I am a gun owner,  btw. Nor am I a flaming liberal.

This is about ideology and blame, reality doesn't enter into it.
"Never trust a man without a single redeeming vice" WSC

Offline Omni

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Re: Another Mass School Shooting in the US
« Reply #32 on: February 16, 2018, 10:44:51 pm »
"Aggravate the problem", now there's an understatement if I ever heard one. I could either challenge or run away from a "crazy" man if he wasn't able to put a 5.56 round into me no matter what I did.

Offline SirJohn

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Re: Another Mass School Shooting in the US
« Reply #33 on: February 17, 2018, 03:29:20 pm »
"Aggravate the problem", now there's an understatement if I ever heard one. I could either challenge or run away from a "crazy" man if he wasn't able to put a 5.56 round into me no matter what I did.

Their gun laws aggravate what is a societal problem with emotional instability and lack of empathy for others. They are not the source of the problem. As the gun nuts would point out, America has ALWAYS had tons of guns laying around, but it's only recently that these mass killing sprees against strangers have started to really explode. Why wasn't this happening much in the 1950s or 1960s? Or, for that matter, the 1930s? Lot of miserable people in the great depression, tons of poverty and hopelessness. Were kids taking dad's guns to school and shooting people? Not that I ever read about. And why doesn't this happen in Black areas? When a black kid shoots people at school its usually a specific target. I can't recall an incident where a black kid went to school in Harlem or Compton and just shot up kids at random.
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Offline Omni

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Re: Another Mass School Shooting in the US
« Reply #34 on: February 17, 2018, 03:48:05 pm »
Their gun laws aggravate what is a societal problem with emotional instability and lack of empathy for others. They are not the source of the problem. As the gun nuts would point out, America has ALWAYS had tons of guns laying around, but it's only recently that these mass killing sprees against strangers have started to really explode. Why wasn't this happening much in the 1950s or 1960s? Or, for that matter, the 1930s? Lot of miserable people in the great depression, tons of poverty and hopelessness. Were kids taking dad's guns to school and shooting people? Not that I ever read about. And why doesn't this happen in Black areas? When a black kid shoots people at school its usually a specific target. I can't recall an incident where a black kid went to school in Harlem or Compton and just shot up kids at random.

They have had guns in the US for many years it's true, but I suspect you might have a problem conducting a mass shooting with a muzzle loader. Guns like the ever popular AR 15 which of course does work well for such things has been on the market since the late 60's and the first shooting with one wasn't until 1982 at which time there were around 160,000 in circulation. Now there are in excess of 8 million and all you need to get one in Florida anyway is be 18 years old. Trump bailing on gun control to blame the whole issue on mental health is simply to keep him in the NRA's good books and by that I mean check books.

Offline TimG

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Re: Another Mass School Shooting in the US
« Reply #35 on: February 17, 2018, 04:54:47 pm »
Their gun laws aggravate what is a societal problem with emotional instability and lack of empathy for others. They are not the source of the problem. As the gun nuts would point out, America has ALWAYS had tons of guns laying around.
Now correlation does not means causation but here is some interesting data to look at:
Quote
The more we look at other similar events it would seem a pattern emerges. A law enforcement friend sent me a chart looking at 47 school shootings and stabbings between 1992 and 2011. A common denominator exists that bears discussion. In every event the attacker was being treated for some form of diagnosed mental issue or personality disorder with psychotropic medication.
http://www.primetimecrime.com/columns/Columns%202013/20130122.htm

Another interesting data point:
Quote
Although the victims of shootings are random, the occurrence of shootings is not random throughout the year. National news on one shooting seems to trigger the next shooter who was contemplating doing something similar. Then we often see a latent period for a month or two before another rash of shootings occurs.

That was not always how it used to be. And I am talking five years ago and 10 years ago. The shootings clustered, yes, but less frequently. Around 2012, the average number of incidents a year was about 15. Around 2003, there were about seven incidents a year. From 1950 to 2000, only about three incidents or less occurred a year. The past three years, we have had 20 or more incidents each year. The number of fatalities has also tripled.
https://www.theglobeandmail.com/opinion/mass-homicides-are-contagious-and-the-malady-is-fuelled-by-themedia/article38010220/
« Last Edit: February 17, 2018, 04:59:57 pm by TimG »
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Offline SirJohn

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Re: Another Mass School Shooting in the US
« Reply #36 on: February 18, 2018, 02:34:34 pm »
They have had guns in the US for many years it's true, but I suspect you might have a problem conducting a mass shooting with a muzzle loader.

They had fully automatic weapons in the twenties, and most American men, certainly those who served in WW1, would be familiar with them. And I don't know of anything like what happened at Sandy Hook or Columbine until the eighties. I think the texas university sniper kicked off the modern age of mass shootings in the mid sixties.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2018, 02:39:09 pm by SirJohn »
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Offline Omni

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Re: Another Mass School Shooting in the US
« Reply #37 on: February 18, 2018, 02:50:25 pm »
They had fully automatic weapons in the twenties, and most American men, certainly those who served in WW1, would be familiar with them. And I don't know of anything like what happened at Sandy Hook or Columbine until the eighties. I think the texas university sniper kicked off the modern age of mass shootings in the mid sixties.

And those automatic weapons were issued to the military and were meant to be kept there, not sold at your local corner gun shop. The AR 15 when it was originally made was meant to be also a military only item, but then Colt got a hold of it and now there are apparently ~8 million in civilian hands. Maybe if someone would have pushed for gun control back when, there would be a lot of school kids still at their desks.

Offline wilber

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Re: Another Mass School Shooting in the US
« Reply #38 on: February 18, 2018, 02:52:11 pm »
They had fully automatic weapons in the twenties, and most American men, certainly those who served in WW1, would be familiar with them.

Not in general use. The Tommy gun was invented as a trench weapon for WW1 but was too late to see service. It was a gangster weapon that didnít see general military use until WW2 and wasnít that popular. The primary US infantry weapon was the M1 semi automatic with an 8 round magazine. The British Lee Enfield bolt action held 10 and was more accurate.
The M16 which the AR15 is based on didnít see service till Vietnam Nam.

The NRA types think they can turn the clock back to the fifties, in spite of the population doubling, demographics changing and providing unrestricted access to AR15 style weapons to every whack job in the country. As usual, their solution to too many guns is more guns.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2018, 03:16:55 pm by wilber »
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Offline SirJohn

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Re: Another Mass School Shooting in the US
« Reply #39 on: February 18, 2018, 08:55:38 pm »
And those automatic weapons were issued to the military and were meant to be kept there, not sold at your local corner gun shop.

There seems to have been a number of them in the hands of criminals, esp during the organized crime fights over territory during prohibition.
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline Omni

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Re: Another Mass School Shooting in the US
« Reply #40 on: February 18, 2018, 09:54:30 pm »
There seems to have been a number of them in the hands of criminals, esp during the organized crime fights over territory during prohibition.

Criminals have their ways of course, but all this guy in Florida had to do was prove his age and pay the price and walk over to his school. Perhaps a specified wait period to allow a background check would have revealed the existing problems that should have prevented him from actually getting his hands on the weapon.

Offline the_squid

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Re: Another Mass School Shooting in the US
« Reply #41 on: February 19, 2018, 01:48:06 am »
Criminals have their ways of course, but all this guy in Florida had to do was prove his age and pay the price and walk over to his school. Perhaps a specified wait period to allow a background check would have revealed the existing problems that should have prevented him from actually getting his hands on the weapon.

Pay for a gun?   Heck, he could have been a good golfer and gotten one for free!

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation-now/2018/02/17/private-school-fla-give-away-2-guns-fundraiser/348813002/

Quote
The 15th annual Trinitas Classic and Pro Am Golf Tournament, a fundraiser for Trinitas Christian Academy, will feature a Browning A-BOLT III Stalker, a bolt-action rifle, and a Smith & Wesson M&P15 ó a sporting rifle similar in design to the AR-15 ó as prizes for a putting contest.

Offline Omni

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Re: Another Mass School Shooting in the US
« Reply #42 on: February 19, 2018, 01:54:21 am »
Pay for a gun?   Heck, he could have been a good golfer and gotten one for free!

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation-now/2018/02/17/private-school-fla-give-away-2-guns-fundraiser/348813002/

I don't have a link just now but if you saw Bowling for Columbine you probably recall the scene were a bank was awarding new customers with rifles. (I'm not a huge Michael Moore fan but he made a point there)

I wonder how comprehensive the "background check" was.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cglnvXzitOQ
« Last Edit: February 19, 2018, 01:59:39 am by Omni »

Offline MH

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Re: Another Mass School Shooting in the US
« Reply #43 on: February 20, 2018, 03:23:55 pm »
Milennials -> unbound

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/powerpost/paloma/daily-202/2018/02/20/daily-202-florida-shooting-aftermath-shows-a-generation-that-s-more-impressive-than-typically-portrayed/5a8b982630fb047655a06814/?utm_term=.69a15be961ea

It's hard to see how this could NOT capture the attention of motivated young people.  This is actually the NRA's nightmare, as their supporting demographic is old and can be convinced with $$$, via advertising.


Offline Goddess

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Re: Another Mass School Shooting in the US
« Reply #44 on: February 20, 2018, 03:31:30 pm »
This kid bought 10 guns and a bunch of assorted tactical equipment in less than a year.  You would think this many purchases would produce some kind of flag somewhere?

How does a kid make that many purchases and NOBODY ever taps him on the shoulder and asks, "Dude, WTF are you doing?"
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