Author Topic: Another Mass School Shooting in the US  (Read 1197 times)

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Offline bcsapper

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Re: Another Mass School Shooting in the US
« Reply #15 on: February 15, 2018, 10:45:46 am »
Here are some political 'nevers' I have read, while reading political history:

"Alberta will always vote Liberal, federally"
"Texas will always be Democrat"

Those things were written less than a hundred years ago, so they're truths that your parents or grandparents lived under.

Yeah, I bet they had their doubts, too.
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Online wilber

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Re: Another Mass School Shooting in the US
« Reply #16 on: February 15, 2018, 11:27:01 am »
The usual hypocritical platitudes from the usual people to the victimís families then rinse, repeat. Meh.
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Offline Omni

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Re: Another Mass School Shooting in the US
« Reply #17 on: February 15, 2018, 11:39:02 am »
And Trump is leading the way be remaining mute on gun control and wishing to put the blame on mental illness during his speech in the aftermath of school shooting number 18 so far this year. I think I know who is suffering from mental illness.

Offline SirJohn

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Re: Another Mass School Shooting in the US
« Reply #18 on: February 15, 2018, 12:52:06 pm »
The NRA spent 55 million on the last election, virtually all to support Trump and Republican candidates. After Las Vegas even a lot of Republicans were making noises about doing away with 'bump stocks' but then the NRA said no and they all shut up. Most Americans favour gun control, but the only way to get it is to have a Democrat in the White House and Democratic majorities in both houses of congress.
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Offline JBG

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Re: Another Mass School Shooting in the US
« Reply #19 on: February 15, 2018, 06:46:31 pm »
The failure of the mental health system is a common thread through these killings. The lone apparent except is Las Vegas, but generally poor mental heath care and/or minding our neighbors seem to be a common thread.

James Holmes, the Colorado theater killer, is perhaps the best example. He tried to contact his psychiatrist while his tenure in a graduate program was falling apart. Other examples are less clear-cut since we know less about their psychological care and treatment. Jared Lochner, who killed a bunch of people, had been expelled from Pima Community College. Adam Lanza's schooling in an affluent Newtown, Connecticut should have exposed him to mental health professionals.

In an incident strikingly similar to the Texas massacre, Esteban Santiago killed six people at Fort Lauderdale International Airport in January 2017. His downward spiral is detailed here, Fort Lauderdale shooter Esteban Santiago saw life falling apart. The article details how "a tape of a January 2016 domestic violence court hearing after his arrest for fighting with his girlfriend, a prosecutor lays out the case, explaining he broke down the bathroom door at Peterson’s home, then hit her in the head."

Kelley, the murderer in Texas, had similar domestic violence problems. They both had troubled military service.

De-institutionalization was a well-intentioned program. It was supposed to convert inhumane and, for the patient ineffective confinement into treatment in the community. This April 2, 1972 article, which I remembered reading, The Patients Can Walk Out At Any Time at Bronx State Mental Hospital (link) made the case for de-institutionalization. Unfortunately few were as motivated as Israel Zwerling, and most looked at the process as a way of saving money.

The mental health system is not doing a good job of keeping these people under control. While the status quo ante before mass de-institutionalization was inhumane to the patients, it did keep the country safe from the lunatics. Perhaps the balance needs to be tipped more in favor of the public than the lunatics.

We can work at improving the humanity, and where appropriate the therapeutic nature of these centers. But we were safer with these people locked up than out loose.

But it doesn't stop at the mental health system; to some extent it involves a far wider community. People need to be more involved with their neighbors.

In recent years there have been plenty of mass shootings. In addition to those discussed about, there is Elliot Rodger (Santa Barbara) and Stephen Paddock (Las Vegas). All of these people were obviously troubled. All of these people, except maybe Adam Lanza, were in regular contact with other students, teachers and administrators at their respective schools. Dylan Roof was in regular contact with friends, roommates and his parents. The societal problem is that it is easier to ignore people who are not sociable and not pleasant to be with than to engage them.

With this horrific church massacre, we are treated to lectures about gun control and about racism. People forget that both in this episode and Sandy Hook parents without any apparent mental health pathologies were the ones that obtained the weapons, not the mentally ill adult-aged children. Guns are everywhere so efforts to control legally purchased guns are doomed to futility. The most those laws will do is prevent people who would hurt no one from owning a gun.

Racism is similarly rife in society. But no one things that Dylan Roof was active in any anti-black political movement.

I suppose that liberals don't want to deal with mental health issues because that would mean getting involved with and spending real time with unpleasant people who don't make good social companions. That takes real time and effort. Learning more about those people and having people who are conscious of their ups and downs might prevent some, though certainly not all tragedies.

I am not saying it is the role of untrained people to be psychologists. Far from it. But when people are left friendless for long periods, and no one reaches out to them a tragedy will sometimes occur. It is our job, as a society, to know our neighbors, students and colleagues.

I feel that forming real communities will solve some of these problems. Trying to remove the implements of crime from people who are far beyond obeying any law of any kind is futile and useless.

It is far easier and more satisfying to inveigh against guns and racism. It feels good and typical for liberals that's what matters as was pointed out here.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2018, 06:59:58 pm by JBG »
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Offline the_squid

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Re: Another Mass School Shooting in the US
« Reply #20 on: February 15, 2018, 06:52:38 pm »
Quote
Guns are everywhere so efforts to control legally purchased guns are doomed to futility. The most those laws will do is prevent people who would hurt no one from owning a gun.

This is nonsense.   Every other western nation on the planet manages to control guns.  Which in turn leads to less death by guns. 

America is not a special case...    if there was reasonable gun control, these incidents would be reduced.

To say otherwise is completely asinine.
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Offline JBG

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Re: Another Mass School Shooting in the US
« Reply #21 on: February 15, 2018, 08:06:54 pm »
This is nonsense.   Every other western nation on the planet manages to control guns.  Which in turn leads to less death by guns. 

America is not a special case...    if there was reasonable gun control, these incidents would be reduced.

To say otherwise is completely asinine.
Guns are ineffective without help from someone.
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Offline John Mark Taylor

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Re: Another Mass School Shooting in the US
« Reply #22 on: February 15, 2018, 08:15:47 pm »
Guns are ineffective without help from someone.

And killing is a much more efficient activity with them.

As was said, America is not special, in this or any other case.
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Offline Omni

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Re: Another Mass School Shooting in the US
« Reply #23 on: February 15, 2018, 08:20:01 pm »
Guns are ineffective without help from someone.

Trump seems like someone willing to "help". But then of course how many millions did the NRA spend on his campaign.

Offline ?Impact

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Re: Another Mass School Shooting in the US
« Reply #24 on: February 15, 2018, 08:21:12 pm »
Guns are ineffective without help from someone.
Not according to Stanley's defense lawyer
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Offline Omni

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Re: Another Mass School Shooting in the US
« Reply #25 on: February 15, 2018, 08:24:11 pm »
Not according to Stanley's defense lawyer

Good point, some guns can kill people all by themselves.

Online wilber

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Re: Another Mass School Shooting in the US
« Reply #26 on: February 16, 2018, 12:31:36 pm »
It's interesting that many Americans believe other countries admire the second amendment, rather than regarding it as a curse.

Also,  https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2018/02/16/586361956/as-an-american-tragedy-unfolds-russian-agents-sow-discord-online
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Online wilber

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Re: Another Mass School Shooting in the US
« Reply #27 on: February 16, 2018, 12:33:56 pm »
Guns are ineffective without help from someone.

So are hydrogen bombs. Let's all get us one. Or six.
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Online wilber

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Re: Another Mass School Shooting in the US
« Reply #28 on: February 16, 2018, 05:26:40 pm »
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Offline SirJohn

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Re: Another Mass School Shooting in the US
« Reply #29 on: February 16, 2018, 06:27:30 pm »
The continuing statements by Republicans that guns are not the problem ignores the reality that at the very, very least, they heavily aggravate the problem. That guy in Edmonton who ran down the cop on his way to running down other people wanted his gun. Why? There are millions of guns in Canada. But he couldn't get one, so he tried to get one off a cop. He could have killed a lot more people with a gun. The guy in Ottawa who ran into the parliament buildings didn't manage to kill anyone there. One of the reasons is he had a rifle which had to be cocked after each shot, and had a small magazine. If he'd had an AR-15 with a high capacity magazine there would have been more deaths. But he couldn't get one of those. They guy who ran down people in New York city last month couldn't get his hands on anything more lethal (aside from the truck) than a pellet gun. If he'd had an AR-15 he'd have been able to kill a lot more people.  But he couldn't get one. New York and New Jersey have far stricter gun laws than Florida.
The terrorists in London are the same. All they had were knives. Imagine the damage they could have done with Uzis or AR15s.

Gun laws aren't going to stop all such killings, but they do make it harder to ring up a high kill rate, especially if you're impatient and crazy and wary of going through a government check to get a permit.

And I am a gun owner,  btw. Nor am I a flaming liberal.
« Last Edit: February 16, 2018, 06:29:16 pm by SirJohn »
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