Author Topic: America's Broken Electoral System  (Read 868 times)

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Offline segnosaur

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Re: Americans Broken Electoral System
« Reply #45 on: November 05, 2020, 05:08:25 pm »
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We do the same thing with our Senate. We split it into regions with Quebec and Ontario each being a region and the four western provinces as another region.This results in BC being hugely under represented in the our Senate with Quebec and the Atlantic provinces hugely over represented.
Not quite to that extreme in terms of representation.  But our senate doesn’t write legislation. It barely ever holds up legislation.  It’s mostly a toothless relic. 
Its true that the senate probably isn't a good example of some parts of the country having excessive power.

But, our house of commons is....

Of the 20 ridings with the highest population, 19 are in Ontario (often in urbanized areas). Of the 20 ridings with the smallest populations, almost half are in the maritimes, and a bunch more are in rural Sask.

What this means is that, by comparison, a voter in an urban Canadian center has less political power than a rural voter in the west or on the east coast.

Now, is it enough to complain about? I assume it depends on the person.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population_of_Canadian_federal_ridings

Offline wilber

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Re: Americans Broken Electoral System
« Reply #46 on: November 05, 2020, 05:17:32 pm »
It means when they see the two parties as essentially the same, you wind up with someone like Trump.
But here's the thing... the parties weren't the same.... one had a party leader with a competent politician with a set of well defined policies that placed it to the left of political center, the other had a bunch of half-baked nonsense (much of which was either self-contradictory, or disagreed with actual facts) pushed by a bigoted con-artist. The problem wasn't "There are no other alternatives", the problem was "people are too dumb to understand the difference".

If you add a 3rd party to the mix, there is no guarantee that that new party will help at all, instead there is a chance it will split the vote of people who actually think and act rationally, and allow a bigoted con-artist to gain power even more easily.

Trump was elected because a lot of people didn't think either party represented them. Obama was kinder and gentler but the average Joe didn't see their lot improving much while they watched him bail out the banks. Even though the parties are different, people didn't have a connection with either of them. Trump shouldn't have even received the nomination and wouldn't have if it had been up to the Republican establishment.
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Offline Queefer Sutherland

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Re: Americans Broken Electoral System
« Reply #47 on: November 05, 2020, 05:21:27 pm »
It may have been designed that way, but it doesn't seem to be working that way in action.

The way American society has evolved, plus the way the electoral college and senate work, have given Republicans both an inside advantage to political power (at least twice in the past few decades they have won the presidency while losing the popular vote, the republican-controlled senate has blocked normal functioning of the government, and currently the supreme court has had multiple members nominated by someone who lost the popular vote, and confirmed by a party in the senate representing less than a majority of citizens. And the supreme court will be deciding on things like Abortion, gun rights, gay rights, etc. for everyone.

There is a difference between "Small states must be protected from abuse by big states" and "small states will be given excessive power to exert the will of the minority over the majority".Correction.... in recent history it appears to be the republicans who are refusing to compromise. (Recall Moscow Mitch blocking Obama's judicial nominees, not because they were unreasonable, but because he was a prick.)

I'm not saying the system is perfect.  But compare that to Canada where 39% of voters can elect a majority, who then nominate unelected Senators and Supreme Court justices and the GG who are the only check on their power.  61% of the electorate have no say in anything whatsoever other than complaining in Question Period.  Canada has been ruled by a minority throughout the vast majority of its history.  And the Trudeau lovers here complain about a 2% discrepancy in the US lol.  Trudeau was elected on a promise to end FPTP and then once he got a majority under that system he broke the promise because its a threat to their power.
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Offline segnosaur

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Re: Americans Broken Electoral System
« Reply #48 on: November 05, 2020, 05:33:17 pm »
Re: American system preventing large states abusing smaller ones...
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It may have been designed that way, but it doesn't seem to be working that way in action.

The way American society has evolved, plus the way the electoral college and senate work, have given Republicans both an inside advantage to political power (at least twice in the past few decades they have won the presidency while losing the popular vote, the republican-controlled senate has blocked normal functioning of the government, and currently the supreme court has had multiple members nominated by someone who lost the popular vote, and confirmed by a party in the senate representing less than a majority of citizens. And the supreme court will be deciding on things like Abortion, gun rights, gay rights, etc. for everyone.

There is a difference between "Small states must be protected from abuse by big states" and "small states will be given excessive power to exert the will of the minority over the majority".
I'm not saying the system is perfect.  But compare that to Canada where 39% of voters can elect a majority, who then nominate unelected Senators and Supreme Court justices and the GG who are the only check on their power.
I am not saying Canada's system is better... (In fact, I gave a rather long post where I pointed out that the problems with the American system seem to be rooted more in the individual politicians rather than any aspect of the political system, and that a Trump-style politician could cause more havoc in a westminster parliamentary system.)

But even if a case can be made that the U.S. system is better overall, that doesn't mean that you can't criticize parts of it, and a part that should be criticized is the excessive power given to smaller states.
« Last Edit: November 05, 2020, 05:41:14 pm by segnosaur »
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Offline wilber

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Re: Americans Broken Electoral System
« Reply #49 on: November 05, 2020, 05:35:59 pm »
Fun Fact

I was just looking at a couple of ten best countries lists. Canada is the only one on them without some sort of PR.
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Offline segnosaur

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Re: Americans Broken Electoral System
« Reply #50 on: November 05, 2020, 05:39:45 pm »
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But here's the thing... the parties weren't the same.... one had a party leader with a competent politician with a set of well defined policies that placed it to the left of political center, the other had a bunch of half-baked nonsense...pushed by a bigoted con-artist. The problem wasn't "There are no other alternatives", the problem was "people are too dumb to understand the difference".

If you add a 3rd party to the mix, there is no guarantee that that new party will help at all, instead there is a chance it will split the vote of people who actually think and act rationally, and allow a bigoted con-artist to gain power even more easily.
Trump was elected because a lot of people didn't think either party represented them.
I think the operative part of your post is "didn't think".

Clinton DID represent what a majority of the population would have wanted. But again, people fell for the lies given by con-artist Trump. The  MAGAchuds weren't thinking about what was best for themselves, or how the Democrats plans would have benefitted them.
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Offline Queefer Sutherland

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Re: Americans Broken Electoral System
« Reply #51 on: November 05, 2020, 05:46:00 pm »
Trump was elected because a lot of people didn't think either party represented them. Obama was kinder and gentler...

Kinder and gentler lol.  While invading Libya and bombing the rest of the middle east, having the NSA spy on Americans unconstitutionally etc.

Obama was simply a far better politician, as were Clinton and Reagan.  They screwed people with a smile and a chuckle where it was hard to dislike them personally, while knifing the people in the back at the same time.  Trump is a just a straight-up a-hole and doesn't hide it.  He lies constantly, but you can tell easier when he's lying because he doesn't care enough to try & hide it.  The most successful politicians lie to us and we don't even realize it.  Obama ran on "change" but besides healthcare he didn't change **** all, we all bought into his smooth-talking snake-oil bullshit.

Now watch as people here freak out & try to defend their favorite liar against their least favorite liar (Trump).  **** Trump and all of them, this bickering is all a distraction from who the real enemy is.  People voted Trump in 2020 higher than people expected because despite being very unlikable and having crappy approval ratings voters still want this crooked system to suck their dicks & don't know how to do that.  The scary thing is a lot of people see Trump as lying for them, not to them.  Doesn't matter if Biden or Trump wins cuz the billionaire crooks are still in power either way.  There's no difference in Canada.

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Offline Queefer Sutherland

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Re: Americans Broken Electoral System
« Reply #52 on: November 05, 2020, 05:51:33 pm »
I'm not saying the system is perfect.  But compare that to Canada where 39% of voters can elect a majority, who then nominate unelected Senators and Supreme Court justices and the GG who are the only check on their power.
I am not saying Canada's system is better... (In fact, I gave a rather long post where I pointed out that the problems with the American system seem to be rooted more in the individual politicians rather than any aspect of the political system, and that a Trump-style politician could cause more havoc in a westminster parliamentary system.)

But even if a case can be made that the U.S. system is better overall, that doesn't mean that you can't criticize parts of it, and a part that should be criticized is the excessive power given to smaller states.

I don't have a problem with states getting equal rep in one of the houses.  The problem is as you say when it's paired with a POTUS with minority rep and the House is shut out on the nomination of SCOTUS etc.  Fortunately it doesn't happen often but it does happen.  It would make sense to abolish the EC, in theory.  The problem with that is then the POTUS candidates would campaign in California and Texas and Florida and ignore the smaller states completely.  With the current system they have to pay attention to these middle-american swing states like Michigan, Pennsylvania etc. where voters are split.  I dunno, there's pro's and cons to everything I guess.  Going by popular vote would be way easier and seem more democratic.
« Last Edit: November 05, 2020, 05:56:19 pm by Gorgeous Graham »
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Offline wilber

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Re: Americans Broken Electoral System
« Reply #53 on: November 05, 2020, 06:03:31 pm »
Kinder and gentler lol.  While invading Libya and bombing the rest of the middle east, having the NSA spy on Americans unconstitutionally etc.



Sure but bombing Wogs had no effect on their daily lives.

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Offline segnosaur

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Re: Americans Broken Electoral System
« Reply #54 on: November 05, 2020, 06:15:55 pm »
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Trump was elected because a lot of people didn't think either party represented them. Obama was kinder and gentler...
Kinder and gentler lol.  While invading Libya and bombing the rest of the middle east
Context is important.

The world is a complex place. Sometimes, even a president who does not favor military action will find it necessary to send in the armed forces. In the case of Libya, the U.S./Obama did not start the military action, and at the time the Libyan government was attacking civilians. I doubt very much whether any diplomatic solution was possible.

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Offline segnosaur

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Re: Americans Broken Electoral System
« Reply #55 on: November 05, 2020, 06:23:35 pm »
I don't have a problem with states getting equal rep in one of the houses.  The problem is as you say when it's paired with a POTUS with minority rep and the House is shut out on the nomination of SCOTUS etc.  Fortunately it doesn't happen often but it does happen.  It would make sense to abolish the EC, in theory.  The problem with that is then the POTUS candidates would campaign in California and Texas and Florida and ignore the smaller states completely.
As opposed to the current situation, where candidates spend all their time in a small handful of swing states, and ignore the 99% of the country that either is solidly for them, or solidly against them.

Now, if they go to a popular vote system, candidates may spend a lot more time in vote-rich NY/California/Texas/etc. But, there is also a chance they may visit population centers in smaller cities that are currently overlooked. Even Wyoming has a couple of cities with more than 50k people. It didn't make much since for either candidate to visit there in the past election (since Wyoming is solidly republican), but it might be worth at least one visit by one or both candidates if they thought they could get some of those voters on side.

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Re: Americans Broken Electoral System
« Reply #56 on: November 05, 2020, 07:21:32 pm »
Sure but bombing Wogs had no effect on their daily lives.
I always thought wogs were just people from India (probably because that's how the major on Fawlty Towers defined them) but your usage may well be correct (if not politically so).

Offline Queefer Sutherland

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Re: Americans Broken Electoral System
« Reply #57 on: November 05, 2020, 09:09:16 pm »
Kinder and gentler lol.  While invading Libya and bombing the rest of the middle east

Context is important.

The world is a complex place. Sometimes, even a president who does not favor military action will find it necessary to send in the armed forces. In the case of Libya, the U.S./Obama did not start the military action, and at the time the Libyan government was attacking civilians. I doubt very much whether any diplomatic solution was possible.

Yes context is important.  NATO and the US don't invade countries for humanitarian reasons.  They did nothing in the Congo War which led to the deaths of millions, or Rwanda, or any other countless African conflicts (besides the failed experiment in Somalia), unless it interfered with Western interests.  If Libya didn't have oil, and if just 2 years prior Gaddafi didn't threaten to nationalize foreign oil firms operating in Libya, NATO wouldn't have touched the place.  It was an imperial incursion to secure oil resources in the West's favour to take advantage of a time of weakness.  It was regime change for Libya (illegally fought by the US without Congressional approval) defended by lies, and also attempted regime change in Syria.  Hope and change from W. Bush my sweet ass.

https://ca.reuters.com/article/idUKTRE50K61F20090121

https://foreignpolicy.com/2016/03/22/libya-and-the-myth-of-humanitarian-intervention/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Congo_War

Trump's domestic policy has been horrendous & chaotic.  His foreign policy is a leftists wet dream & everything they've asked for since Eisenhower.
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Offline Queefer Sutherland

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Re: Americans Broken Electoral System
« Reply #58 on: November 05, 2020, 09:10:29 pm »
As opposed to the current situation, where candidates spend all their time in a small handful of swing states, and ignore the 99% of the country that either is solidly for them, or solidly against them.

Now, if they go to a popular vote system, candidates may spend a lot more time in vote-rich NY/California/Texas/etc. But, there is also a chance they may visit population centers in smaller cities that are currently overlooked. Even Wyoming has a couple of cities with more than 50k people. It didn't make much since for either candidate to visit there in the past election (since Wyoming is solidly republican), but it might be worth at least one visit by one or both candidates if they thought they could get some of those voters on side.

There's very good arguments to get rid of the EC yes I agree.
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Offline wilber

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Re: Americans Broken Electoral System
« Reply #59 on: November 05, 2020, 09:12:16 pm »
I always thought wogs were just people from India (probably because that's how the major on Fawlty Towers defined them) but your usage may well be correct (if not politically so).


The definition is anyone not white. I didn't mean it to be politically correct, just accurate.
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