Author Topic: American Public Education Culture  (Read 411 times)

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Offline SuperColinBlow

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Re: American Public Education Culture
« Reply #30 on: June 18, 2019, 03:13:21 am »
That isn't deceptive.
That's just an average same as all the other countries.
And it's a low average for a 'developed' country.
Just like their teachers' wages.
Pay better salaries, attract better people.
It's only the country's future at stake.

Except that the average is very misleading, since U.S. education is very decentralized in some respects. Even within a state, there are degrees of better/worse school districts.
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Offline MH

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Re: American Public Education Culture
« Reply #31 on: June 18, 2019, 05:58:40 am »
It's a number so there is truth put into it: the US has some neglected places and is neglecting the poorest areas.  That's a problem.

Offline cybercoma

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Re: American Public Education Culture
« Reply #32 on: June 18, 2019, 08:30:01 am »
Haven't you been listening? We're throwing money at Baltimore, 3x as much as in other jurisdictions in Maryland, and it continues to suck
Because like I've been saying, they're throwing money at the wrong things. Dumpy all the money in the world into schools means absolutely nothing when kids home environments are a struggle.

Offline Granny

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Re: American Public Education Culture
« Reply #33 on: June 18, 2019, 10:03:18 am »
Except that the average is very misleading, since U.S. education is very decentralized in some respects. Even within a state, there are degrees of better/worse school districts.

There's variation in every country, more or less.
It's just an average for overall comparisons.
It's consistent with past patterns, US sort of middle range.



Offline ?Impact

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Re: American Public Education Culture
« Reply #34 on: June 18, 2019, 01:05:46 pm »
Why should a young teacher who works their butt off get paid less than a 20 year veteran that punches a clock?

There are many factors that go into performance, and there is no magic way to evaluate them all. Hours spent is only one of those metrics, and can be measured. With experience a lot of the hard to measure metrics are [generally] improved. Teach to the test has been proven to be a counter productive metric, and should not be used. I agree the current system has many problems, but solutions are not simple.

Offline wilber

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Re: American Public Education Culture
« Reply #35 on: June 18, 2019, 03:54:49 pm »
Except that the average is very misleading, since U.S. education is very decentralized in some respects. Even within a state, there are degrees of better/worse school districts.

 If half your population is very well educated but the other half is functionally illiterate, you would be classified as average but in reality, you aren't doing very well.
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Offline ?Impact

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Re: American Public Education Culture
« Reply #36 on: June 18, 2019, 04:02:13 pm »
If half your population is very well educated but the other half is functionally illiterate, you would be classified as average but in reality, you aren't doing very well.

More important is youth education because that represents the future. A country with a large illiterate and retired population is not as concerning as a country with half the youth illiterate.

Offline wilber

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Re: American Public Education Culture
« Reply #37 on: June 18, 2019, 04:03:15 pm »
There are many factors that go into performance, and there is no magic way to evaluate them all. Hours spent is only one of those metrics, and can be measured. With experience a lot of the hard to measure metrics are [generally] improved. Teach to the test has been proven to be a counter productive metric, and should not be used. I agree the current system has many problems, but solutions are not simple.

Teaching to a test is not ideal but on the other hand, you need a standardized method of measuring results. According to a survey done by York University.
Quote
A survey of students at four Ontario universities has found that more than half feel they lack competence in basic academic skills that would enable them to succeed in university and beyond.
"Never trust a man without a single redeeming vice" WSC

Offline MH

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Re: American Public Education Culture
« Reply #38 on: June 18, 2019, 04:58:19 pm »
Teaching to a test is not ideal but on the other hand, you need a standardized method of measuring results. According to a survey done by York University.

When you introduce metrics, then managing to the metric is always a problem.  Metrics alone don't fix bad management.

Offline wilber

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Re: American Public Education Culture
« Reply #39 on: June 18, 2019, 05:07:00 pm »
When you introduce metrics, then managing to the metric is always a problem.  Metrics alone don't fix bad management.

True but how do you issue someone a diploma if there is no way of establishing they meet a minimum standard?
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Offline TimG

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Re: American Public Education Culture
« Reply #40 on: June 18, 2019, 06:34:27 pm »
When you introduce metrics, then managing to the metric is always a problem.  Metrics alone don't fix bad management.
You can't have good management if there is no mechanism for accountability. Metrics are a necessary but not sufficient requirement for success.
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Offline MH

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Re: American Public Education Culture
« Reply #41 on: June 18, 2019, 08:23:56 pm »
You can't have good management if there is no mechanism for accountability. Metrics are a necessary but not sufficient requirement for success.

"Mechanism for accountability" - what is that ?  People are accountable for their actions.  People actually can be fired for gross incompetence, they can be coached and improve themselves.  Most professionals want to do a good job. 

Offline Granny

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Re: American Public Education Culture
« Reply #42 on: June 18, 2019, 10:33:44 pm »
True but how do you issue someone a diploma if there is no way of establishing they meet a minimum standard?

No single measure can ever do that. It's one indicator, That's all.
That's what assignments, exams, teacher assessments, etc are for.

Offline TimG

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Re: American Public Education Culture
« Reply #43 on: June 18, 2019, 11:08:09 pm »
"Mechanism for accountability" - what is that ?  People are accountable for their actions.  People actually can be fired for gross incompetence
ROTFL.
https://www.macleans.ca/news/canada/why-its-so-hard-to-fire-bad-teachers/

Quote
The fact that more bad teachers aren’t being fired is “a problem that nobody wants to talk about,” says Menuey, who authored a 2007 study on the subject. Despite research indicating that about five per cent of every workforce is incompetent, he uncovered a truth about his district he describes as “scandalous”: less than one-tenth of one per cent of tenured teachers were being dismissed annually for poor performance.

Offline wilber

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Re: American Public Education Culture
« Reply #44 on: June 18, 2019, 11:41:47 pm »
No single measure can ever do that. It's one indicator, That's all.
That's what assignments, exams, teacher assessments, etc are for.

I agree that it shouldn't be the only indicator but it is a necessary one. Kids will be getting final exams in post secondary education, so they should be exposed to them before they get there.
"Never trust a man without a single redeeming vice" WSC