Author Topic: American Public Education Culture  (Read 411 times)

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Offline SuperColinBlow

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Re: American Public Education Culture
« Reply #15 on: June 17, 2019, 11:16:55 am »
Won't do any good unless the system is fixed to reward teachers based on merit rather than seniority. I have heard from multiple people working in the system that while there are many dedicated teachers doing a great job their work is often undone by crappy teachers who are only there to collect a pension. The system will never get better as long as crappy teachers face no consequences for their incompetence.

In inner city schools, that could lead to some corruption, though. But even so, you have a good point about the crappy teachers. However, try firing them--or not rewarding them--and see what happens. I think city leaders have given up on that long ago, and I'll give you three guesses as to who (or what) prevents it.

Not to answer my own question but more accountability and oversight of the people at the top, and what they are doing, would help for one thing.
« Last Edit: June 17, 2019, 11:28:03 am by SuperColinBlow »
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Offline MH

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Re: American Public Education Culture
« Reply #16 on: June 17, 2019, 11:44:10 am »
Agree with CB.  Teachers are one point and to add - often the idea of reform gets gathered up in anti-union purposes.  That's fine, but unions, administrators and parents should just work on common areas to fix problems.
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Offline SuperColinBlow

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Re: American Public Education Culture
« Reply #17 on: June 17, 2019, 07:58:16 pm »
Agree with CB.  Teachers are one point and to add - often the idea of reform gets gathered up in anti-union purposes.  That's fine, but unions, administrators and parents should just work on common areas to fix problems.

Which of course, they don't.
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Offline TimG

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Re: American Public Education Culture
« Reply #18 on: June 17, 2019, 08:26:57 pm »
Agree with CB.  Teachers are one point and to add - often the idea of reform gets gathered up in anti-union purposes.  That's fine, but unions, administrators and parents should just work on common areas to fix problems.
Before you dismiss any concern about union imposed work rules as not worth listening to because they are "anti-union" you should ask why people are anti-union in the first place. For me it is because of the crazy requirements that put the personal benefit of the union members ahead of the consumers of the good or service that the organization is responsible for delivering (i.e. blanket rejection of pay system based on merit). Such requirements are simply unprofessional and, in some cases, unethical. I have no issue with unions that limited their demands to wage and work place health and safety issues but those types of unions are few and far between.

Offline MH

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Re: American Public Education Culture
« Reply #19 on: June 17, 2019, 08:32:29 pm »
1) For me it is because of the crazy requirements that put the personal benefit of the union members ahead of the consumers of the good or service that the organization is responsible for delivering (i.e. blanket rejection of pay system based on merit).

2) Such requirements are simply unprofessional and, in some cases, unethical. I have no issue with unions that limited their demands to wage and work place health and safety issues but those types of unions are few and far between.

1) It's a very general complaint, and one that could be made of any professional or even any worker.  Some even try to say that climate scientists are in it for the money.  But the CEOs who push opioids for personal gain I guess are 'ok' because there's no hypocrisy there: they just kill people for profit.  Yes, I'm hyperbole-ing.

2) So the solution is, inevitably, to break the union and pay people a fraction of what they are paid now. 

I will entertain a specific example, and might even side with you on that example if you have one.  But I have seen far too much bullshit like "they don't work in summer so fire them" etc.

Offline cybercoma

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Re: American Public Education Culture
« Reply #20 on: June 17, 2019, 08:45:08 pm »
Not really. It is a reference to the fact that cyber seems to blame every social ill on "income inequality". My response is a thought exercise that illustrates the why it makes no sense to place so much importance on the "income inequality" factor.
Because IT IS related to a very large number of social and health issues. Literally everyone whose job it is to study these things recognizes that.

Offline TimG

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Re: American Public Education Culture
« Reply #21 on: June 17, 2019, 08:51:35 pm »
I will entertain a specific example, and might even side with you on that example if you have one.  But I have seen far too much bullshit like "they don't work in summer so fire them" etc.
I gave you a specific example: pay based on merit. This is no go zone for most unions and I see it as a unprofessional and sometimes unethical stance. It is also a work condition that every management employee, including the CEO, has to accept so you can't really argue that there is a double standard.

Offline MH

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Re: American Public Education Culture
« Reply #22 on: June 17, 2019, 09:30:41 pm »
I gave you a specific example: pay based on merit. This is no go zone for most unions and I see it as a unprofessional and sometimes unethical stance. It is also a work condition that every management employee, including the CEO, has to accept so you can't really argue that there is a double standard.

How is it going to fix this problem ?

Offline TimG

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Re: American Public Education Culture
« Reply #23 on: June 17, 2019, 09:42:28 pm »
How is it going to fix this problem ?
The problem is big enough that no single reform is going to fix the system but we do know there is limited correlation between per capita spending and educational outcomes so throwing money at the problem is not going work. A system where merit is rewarded would help ensure that the money being spent on teachers is directed to those teachers that are doing the most with the resources they have. This seems like common sense. Why should a young teacher who works their butt off get paid less than a 20 year veteran that punches a clock?

Offline Omni

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Re: American Public Education Culture
« Reply #24 on: June 17, 2019, 10:05:33 pm »
The problem is big enough that no single reform is going to fix the system but we do know there is limited correlation between per capita spending and educational outcomes so throwing money at the problem is not going work. A system where merit is rewarded would help ensure that the money being spent on teachers is directed to those teachers that are doing the most with the resources they have. This seems like common sense. Why should a young teacher who works their butt off get paid less than a 20 year veteran that punches a clock?

The fact is that throwing money at the problem in the US could very well work. Why should that young teacher you speak of work their butt off to get on average 68% of the income their counterparts in other countries do? (such as Canada)and who have much better outcomes from the educational system. 

Offline SuperColinBlow

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Re: American Public Education Culture
« Reply #25 on: June 18, 2019, 12:28:46 am »
The fact is that throwing money at the problem in the US could very well work. Why should that young teacher you speak of work their butt off to get on average 68% of the income their counterparts in other countries do? (such as Canada)and who have much better outcomes from the educational system.

Haven't you been listening? We're throwing money at Baltimore, 3x as much as in other jurisdictions in Maryland, and it continues to suck; yet the other jurisdictions--the less funded ones--are light years ahead! How much should the taxpayers throw at a school system like Baltimore? four times? Five?

Nobody becomes a teacher to get rich. They typically know, when studying to be a teacher, that they're going into a profession that's not very highly paid compared to others. That doesn't mean we should see if we can starve them to death for shits and giggles. But this goes beyond salaries. Some school systems, where they do get paid more, still have teacher shortages because they don't want to put up with the piles of bullshit that are higher in some school districts than in others.
« Last Edit: June 18, 2019, 12:50:11 am by SuperColinBlow »
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Offline Omni

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Re: American Public Education Culture
« Reply #26 on: June 18, 2019, 12:41:08 am »
Haven't you been listening? We're throwing money at Baltimore, 3x as much as in other jurisdictions in Maryland, and it continues to suck; yet the other jurisdictions--the less funded ones--are light years ahead! How much should the taxpayers throw at a school system like Baltimore? four times? Five?

I'm referring to the US overall, not just one particular jurisdiction. And wherever that money goes it doesn't end up in the paychecks of teachers, which is perhaps the best qualified ones are in offices and not classrooms.

Offline SuperColinBlow

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Re: American Public Education Culture
« Reply #27 on: June 18, 2019, 12:55:49 am »
I'm referring to the US overall, not just one particular jurisdiction. And wherever that money goes it doesn't end up in the paychecks of teachers, which is perhaps the best qualified ones are in offices and not classrooms.

It's a problem that is common in the U.S., not just in my state. Of course it doesn't end up in the pockets of teachers! More importantly, it doesn't end up affecting positively the lives of students. You think throwing money at a problem will make it go away? It looks good at election time, sure, but that's probably the only benefit of "throwing money" at something and assuming it'll help: it affects positively the political survival of local politicians. Talk about a band-aid on a broken leg!
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Offline Omni

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Re: American Public Education Culture
« Reply #28 on: June 18, 2019, 01:00:59 am »
It's a problem that is common in the U.S., not just in my state. Of course it doesn't end up in the pockets of teachers! More importantly, it doesn't end up affecting positively the lives of students. You think throwing money at a problem will make it go away? It looks good at election time, sure, but that's probably the only benefit of "throwing money" at something and assuming it'll help: it affects positively the political survival of local politicians. Talk about a band-aid on a broken leg!

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/sep/07/us-education-spending-finland-south-korea

In the US, teachers earn on average 68% of what other university-educated workers make
Ratio of teachers' salaries relative to university-grad earnings
0
0.2
0.4
0.6
0.8
1
1.2
South Korea
Canada
Finland
Germany
OECD Average
United States

Offline Granny

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Re: American Public Education Culture
« Reply #29 on: June 18, 2019, 01:50:32 am »
The US numbers are also deceptive. The schools in middle class and upper class neighborhoods are very good but the average is brought down by the abysmal inner city schools.

That isn't deceptive.
That's just an average same as all the other countries.
And it's a low average for a 'developed' country.
Just like their teachers' wages.
Pay better salaries, attract better people.
It's only the country's future at stake.
« Last Edit: June 18, 2019, 01:55:48 am by Granny »